I stumbled upon an interesting survey the other day called The Modesty Survey. The website describes it as “an exciting, anonymous discussion between Christian guys and girls who care about modesty.”
Apparently hundreds of Christian girls contributed to the 148-question survey and over 1,600 Christian guys submitted 150,000+ answers, including 25,000 text responses.
Turns out you ladies aren’t allowed to wear miniskirts or halter-tops, but you can get away with decorative stitching on your pockets.
I think I get the point of this… but I do have one bone to pick. It seems a bit one sided. It communicates that modesty is something which pertains to only girls and immodesty is something that guys get to define. It almost seems to allow men to blame their “lustful minds” on women and their “immodest” dress instead of challenging them to “renew their mind.”
I may totally regret opening this can of worms but I think this is an important conversation.
What responsibility do you think women have when it comes to what they wear? Is it possible for us to get to legalistic about this?
Do I have to be first to comment? Yikes. Yes, I absolutely believe you can become legalistic. A blanket “no pants” statement as an example is not something I buy into. However, women have to own their part. This verse always pops into my mind on this subject. I hope I’m taking this out of context but I do think of it…
Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
I think it’s pretty obvious a woman can dress in a way that would cause a man to sin and Jesus is saying the blame lies on her shoulders as well as the man’s.
However, a woman can also dress in a way that is completely modest and still cause a man to lust so she should not be held responsible for that.
As for your question, I think it comes down to intent. Is the woman dressing in a way to provoke a man’s attention?
I agree with Amy…a lot of times guys use this for an excuse but if a woman is dressing with the intent of grabbing the attention of men then she’s as much to blame.
I would say that we can become legalistic on any issue.
I also agree with Amy, what is the intent to dress a certain way. A woman should take responsibility in how we dress…if modest and a man lusts…that is his issue.
We have this a lot in our Celebrate Recovery group. We have guys that are dealing with lust or sexual addiction. We remind the women that we need not be a stumbling block and have respect for the guys who deal deal with those issues…therefore, please make sure you are dressing modestly.
For us it comes down to showing respect for others and ourselves.
I agree that this survey is one-sided as is most of what gets addressed as “lust” in Christian circles. Although Christians are commanded to not cause their brothers or sisters to stumble, it seems that we cherrypick the sins we want to address. Let’s consider what would happen if we applied the same “Don’t Cause Anyone to Stumble Rules” to sins besides lust and sexual temptation.
If I know that my neighbor has a shopping addiction and is being chased down by creditors, should I drive an older model car or make sure that I am not wearing the latest trendy clothing so I do not tempt her to buy more? Should my shopping habits be regulated by her sin?
How about the guy who owns a buffet restaurant? Isn’t he tempting all gluttons to indulge in their pet sin? Maybe he should open a health food restaurant…
On the other hand, what about that obsessive-compulsive, formerly anorexic friend who wants to get together for dinner? Do I need to order the burger and fries when I am with her and not the salad that I really want so that she doesn’t start worrying about calories and get thrown back into an obsession with food?
How about those of you who use spanking as a form of discipline? Have you ever thought that the way you discipline your children may be causing the adult who was abused as a child to struggle with latent feelings of hatred or unforgiveness against his or her perpetrators? Should your discipline choices be regulated by that person’s struggle?
At what point do I need to live my life and modify who I am to please or fix or protect other people? When we try to change ourselves so that others will change are we helping or hurting? Are we manipulating? Are we trusting God or playing God?
Definitely a can of worms…
Well, dang. Great point.
Good try but actually I don’t think these are good points. When we change it’s because we’re doing what’s right, what God wants from us, not to “save another person”. And let’s take the example of the shopping addiction. Of course your not going to hide your new car but are you going to show it off? Hey, look at me. Look at my new stuff. Here try it. Let’s go for a ride. See, how smooth the leather, how shiny the paint. That’s what we’re doing when we dress certain ways. The only difficult question here should be just what is modest and what isn’t. Not wether we should be modest. That goes for guys and girls. I think reliable Christian men telling us how they feel about certain clothing would be a good place to start. After all how would I know?
I know what is modest because there is a check in my spirit when I am looking in the mirror and I see cleavage. I know because the Holy Spirit is dwelling in me. My husband is a good Christian man but what is modest to him may be immodest to another Christian man. I can’t rely on a man to tell me what is and isn’t modest. The only man that should tell me is my Heavenly Father.
I was headed to the grocery store yesterday when I saw a bicyclist on the road. He had on skin tight shorts and no shirt. His expertly shaved, tanned, glistening-with-sweat chest and rippling biceps caused my mind to momentarily go to a place it shouldn’t have. Does that mean that here in hot as Hell Florida, all men ought to exercise in long sleeved shirts to prevent my sinful thought? Or was my momentary lapse in chaste thought MY problem? After all, how would HE know that his choice of workout clothing was causing this reliable Christian gal to feel?
Maybe all male Christian bicyclists should cover their torsos and arms for me and wear baggy khaki shorts. But that still leaves ME to deal with the issue of what to do when that sexy, atheist dude down the street takes his morning run in the white tank and short running shorts.
My lust is my problem. My gluttony is my problem. My lying is my problem. My sloth is my problem. When we make our sins anyone else’s problem (except ours and God’s)…they usually don’t get fixed. That’s just my opinion.
Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand- blaming others for our responses is not a reflection of what the Bible teaches.
Our God calls us to think of others before ourselves in a kind and loving way- not to be enablers. It takes a discerning heart that desires to please Him when faced with decisions not easily answered.
What is the intent of my heart? Am I approaching the friendship or relationship with my understanding and needs or am I seeking guidance for this challenge?
Girls and women who dress immodestly are displaying a lack of understanding of how God sees them and wants to protect them. That awareness can take time and love to develop in the heart and mind- are you the friend who will lovingly come alongside that person to encourage a deeper relationship with Him?
Are you that person who so loves Him that you will attract the immodest dresser into a stronger fellowship with other believers?
A hard heart is not the way to go….
Well, like the others who have commented, legalism is always a possibility.
But as far as modest dress goes, I think Amy nailed it. What may seem modest to a woman may come across as just provocative enough (which let’s be honest it doesn’t always take much) to trigger “lustful minds.”
I think it does come down to the intent of the woman who is wearing such clothes. But, by no means is that an excuse for men. In 2 Corinthians 10.5 Paul tells us that we are to “…take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” That means we need to be aware of our thought patterns & process & what triggers those thoughts.
Simply put, it’s up to guys to keep their eyes their heads, & they heads in the right place.
I was looking at the results of this survey the other day. I couldn’t decide whether to take it to heart or throw up my hands, because apparently women are stumbling blocks pretty much no matter *what* we are, or are not, wearing.
At that point I started to feel a little rebellious, like back in the day when my dad and I debated this subject repeatedly. (Dad vetoed two piece swimsuits, strapless prom dresses, and frowned on other wardrobe choices – and this was in the baggy ’90s).
The thing is, my husband has a different standard of appropriateness than my dad did. He loves it when I look cute, which to him includes wearing things strongly vetoed by the survey.
I guess I’m never really sure how to react to something like this.
Maybe you guys should never leave the house.
What a great idea!
Wait, hasn’t that been tried?
I see both sides of this issue. There are definitely women that I think need to have a blanket thrown over them. (Good grief, we are in public!!) But then I have an issue with blaming women – as you said Pete – for the lust men feel. From what I’ve read, this is a big part of why women are covered in the burkas of Afghanistan for instance. Women are considered “evil” because seeing them causes men to sin. It warps all of society and the relationships between men and women. It can – in the long run – lead to the “demonization of women” and that is never a good thing.
I think what we’re seeing is just a reflection of the lie women have swallowed for years – that our looks and sexuality are all we have to offer – it is the commodity we have to trade. Which is very sad. So women show off what they’ve got because they KNOW it will attract male attention. And male attention is how we judge our self-worth many times. Again. This is sad.
For women I’d say “use some common sense”. If you’re dressing to seduce, then cut it out.
For men, I’d say “you have to learn to grow up and deal with this maturely”. Work on your thought life. Learn to avert your eyes. Honor your wife. Etc. Women cannot possibly dress all the time in a way that no man will ever lust after them. The man has to deal with his issues too.
I think the issue is deeper than what we wear. I think the issue we have to address is WHY women wear what they wear and how we feel about ourselves.
I agree! The issue is much deeper than wardrobe choices. It’s easier to address clothing than it is to address the way we value ourselves and others – how well we love our neighbor as ourselves, and the heart of a person.
Good points.
“From what I’ve read, this is a big part of why women are covered in the burkas of Afghanistan for instance. Women are considered “evil” because seeing them causes men to sin. It warps all of society and the relationships between men and women”. This can be so true. I remember being at a water park with my family and there was a Muslim family near us. As we were at a slide waiting for our kids, another female came down and had lost her top. Unfortunately the Muslim father couldn’t take his eyes of the lass on the slide. How does that make his wife feel? I so wanted to slap him or make comment about it, but I am a mere female, what would I have to offer him? In his culture I have no right to speak to him. So, I just had to pray. It still riles me to think of it though.
Totally can go down the legalistic road!
I think that women and men each need to take responsibility for themselves. But there’s also the idea of cause & effect. And intentions. I believe that I have the responsibility to be modest. Including in how I dress. Guys need to take responsibility/ownership of their thoughts.
I think that God was pretty clear in Romans 14:13 & 21:
“13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this– not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way… 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.”
This conversation kind of makes my skin crawl. That we need to define down to article of clothing what is immodest is ridiculous. We don’t need to have it all hanging out there…we know when it is too much…we know when we to blame someone else for our sinful hearts.
very well stated. I think that it applies for dudes as well. I don’t think it’s just for women.
Does this mean I should put up my mini skirt????
definitely.
No halter tops either. ever.
I agree with Lindsey. I do feel like women have a lot of pressure put on them to “dress modestly” and to “not tempt the opposite sex”. I am obviously not a guy, but I think that no matter what a girl wore (even if they were covered head to toe), men could still lust. It is a heart issue as well as a visual issue. I definitely think it is important for the woman to dress appropriately, but why do we get all the pressure? you know?
Thanks for bringing up this topic, Pete. I think it is important to discuss.
Thanks, Pete, for having our backs on the modesty issue. I agree with the last few people who commented (including my blogging-partner Jennie!). We have sinful natures.
I don’t think God is going to accept the “but she made me do it!” excuse when we’re face to face with Him.
Shouldn’t both sides be held responsible?
If you don’t want someone looking at it than don’t wear it or wear something that shows it off. But you can’t go around wearing something like a sack. It’s just not practicle. You know what’s always confused me? Why (and how) are skirts considered modest (I’m talking about long ones) and pants aren’t? I don’t think I even understand how most people judge modesty. If I did I don’t think I would have such a hard time figuring out how to dress when I know men will be around.
Agree on the confusion. Ugh. I think different men have such different opinions which is one thing that makes it so confusing.
I think it comes from the levitical laws about women not dressing in mens attire or something.(I think there was something also about them not wearing anything with a crotch in it?)
Which confused me, because they all wore ‘dresses’.
A very tricky topic, for sure, because “modesty” is completely subjective. What is considered “modest” changes from culture to culture and from one generation to the next within that culture, and even from person to person within each generation.
Jan touched on some very sensitive but important points, though, when she noted that we women often measure our worth by how popular we are with men and how pleasing we are to them. Like she said, the issue is far deeper than individual pieces of clothing, and has more to do with why women feel they have to dress to please men. Women are under a LOT of pressure to be beautiful, yet if we start to conform to that pressure, we are accused of being sinful and vain. Men can’t be pleased either way, it seems!
Totally agree with you!!
As a wife and the mom of 3 girls I think this is a topic that is growing more important to my heart. I think we are misleading ourselves if we believe as women, that we shouldnt have to take responsibility for how we dress. The war against women and their beauty, is an old one. It stems from Eve and the enemys all out attack on Gods beautiful creation in the garden of eden. I believe the enemy wants nothing more than to confuse us over what is beauty and what is not. Being modest doesnt mean, not being beautiful or feminine. In fact, i think it means quite the opposite. It is a matter of the heart. In fact, if you get to the root of this conversation, i believe that is so much more than whether I am allowed to wear a tank top or not. It is a transformation crisis that Pastor Pete preached about on Sunday. I believe we need to begin to think about dressing our bodies in a way to reflect the beauty of Christ. Its so much deeper than the surface.
Very well said!
“it’s a matter of the heart”- I couldn’t agree more.
i agree. A matter of heart. …+ love.
If you who are strongs in faith, dont consider the weak, then you’re not walking in love!. -paul paraphrased.
Oh boy…this has my blood pressure on the rise.
Yes – it does get legalistic. My sister doesn’t wear pants or jewelry or short sleeves. She doesn’t cut her hair. She is trapped in legalism. It doesn’t just hurt my heart – it makes me angry!
Modesty has always been focused on what women wear.
What about the guy who was walking around shirtless the other day that caused me to do a double take. It’s all his fault, right? NO – it’s my heart! (just being real & real vulnerable here)
Modesty is a RESULT of getting our hearts right.
I have a son and daughter in high school. They have parents that invest in them. They know they are not the sum of their parts. They hate bad hair days and pimples, but it doesn’t define them. NEVER underestimate the power and responsibility we have as parents to teach our children WHO defines them.
When we, young and old, male and female are defined by God and not by the sum of our parts we will begin seeing and valuing others in the same way.
It is a heart issue.
Obviously one I am still working out in my own heart.
like
I’ll be honest (knowing that I’m a pretty sick dude), but often times it doesn’t matter what a women wears before my thoughts get sinful…capture every thought…that’s what I have to keep telling myself…
Pete, you pointed out my biggest concern from this survey–in this view, modesty becomes a one-sided issue where women are given the impossible responsibility to keep men from sinning. I wonder what a reversed modesty survey given out to women about guy’s “faults” would find.
I think that it comes down to personal responsibility, for both men and women.
Is it possible for us to get to legalistic about this? It is NOT possible that we can get legalistic it is probable that WILL get legalistic.
We are each, men and women, responsible for ourselves. Our thoughts, actions, everything. Parents are responsible to teach children what is and is not appropriate as they grow. As a father of 2 little boys I will be teaching them how to be responsible for themselves. Dictating what ladies can wear is just another way to control them and blaming our lack of mental control on what someone is wearing is preposterous. But it happens. All. The. Time. Blanket statement: We need to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves and our families.
You took the words right off of my keyboard! Reminds me of Pastor Pete’s admonition that when in a public setting, “keep your eyes bouncing let them rest too long in any one spot.”
(I meant to say) “DON’T let the rest too long…”
Kudos to dad for dealing so directly with your sons!!!
By the same token, Dads of daughters can help the conversation by giving their girls the standards of WHO they are in his eyes and WHO they are in Christ from early, early on. Dads can speak directly to their daughters about guarding their modesty and their privacy as a treasure meant only to be shared with their parents (when very young) and later with their spouse (when married).
We started “modeling” the incoming season’s clothing for Daddy when my oldest girl was only 3 or 4. It started out as a fun, “Look at me Daddy!” event but has grown into a conversation where she hears his heart for guarding his daughters against the inappropriate intent of others who are captured by appearance. In fact, when I’m stumped for a way to “get thru” to her over a particular outfit that might be on the “edge” of my comfort zone, I often give Dad a heads up in private and ask her to “try it out on Daddy” first before wearing it… It’s been a great way to be a united front and to help her understand that preserving her innocence and guarding her modesty is NOT just about her and her attire.
As a mom of boys, I talk to them frequently about guarding their modesty and guarding their eyes when confronted with folks who have differing ideas of how modesty is defined. It’s a hard thing to be conscientious about but if we don’t intentionally communicate to our kids about this topic, we leave them without Biblical tools in the foundational years of their growing in Christ…
I do believe that we as women have a responsibility to dress in a way that does not cause extra attention from the male spectator, potentially leading to anything from lustful thoughts to alterier motivated introductions. If we cover up the most popular targets of attention, then we have done our part. Our attire should honor God…and I do believe this is true of men also.
I don’t believe that women can keep men from sinning….and vice versa. We have to be responsible for our sins/thoughts. However, I am aware of some boundaries, and i know where I can be more likely to stir up temptation. Knowing that, I have a responsibility to behave better. I’m not going to wear long sleeves in the summer…. that man with an arm sensibility is gonna have to work on himself.
Ok, I think we need to realize that we can become legalistic about anything. Commenters above were absolutely correct when they said women (just by being women) can cause a man to lust. Goodness, do they all have to be so pretty.
I think there are some generalities which all women would be wise to watch out for, but anything beyond that is taking the responsibility away from men.
Also, I just have to ask if Amy (the first commenter) knew what she was saying when she asked about a ‘blanket “no-pants” statement’? I don’t think no-pants is the answer.
the information you’ve presented sounds a lot like what was described to me the other day by a fellow from another religion explaining why women (in his religion) wear what they do.
he said if women weren’t dressed in those ways, they might tempt men into a lustful state. and he even went so far as to say it would be her fault if she were raped.
i was pretty disgusted at such irresponsibility on the parts of men.
I think that I, as a woman, have a great deal of responsibility to myself, my brothers in Christ, and to other women to dress in a way that does not create an obvious place for men to direct their lust. That being said, it is very easy to get legalistic about this and end up dressing like a fundamentalist. That is not the idea! I should make sure that everything is covered, isn’t too tight and that I look in such a way that I wouldn’t mind my dad (or more importantly My Father) seeing me as.
However, I do feel that men should ask themselves if they are doing everything they can to control their own lusts. And also, are they doing everything they can to be modest and guard their sisters. While we as women are not as visual as men are, there are certain ways that men can dress (or ACT!) that can cause the women around them lust.
As I believe someone else mentioned, we need to take it as a matter of heart and make sure we are all loving each other accordingly.
i’m so grateful that you mentioned the one-sidedness of this poll. it’s very intersting to me that men are having so much say and yet women are saying so little.
I was once sitting in traffic and saw a woman in full head to toe motorcycle gear (fabric not leather). I thought, “She’s so hot.” Then I realized that she couldn’t be wearing more clothing. It was me that was broken, not her.
it doesn’t mention modesty for dudes because they are mostly hairy and ugly. I’m amazed women find us attractive at all
Hairy – yes. Ugly – not so much!
Since the bible has a clear admonition to women to be “modest” then I think the only reason this is even an issue is because of the hearts of women. If women were serious about following the bible instead of giving in to their own desires (ie. getting men’s attention – don’t you girls DARE say that isn’t true! I know, I’m a girl) then this issue would not even be up for discussion.
People say that women try to get a man’s attention by what she wears, and this is true, but the other side of the coin is this: the way men react to immodest clothing is exactly what makes women want to wear it. It is not one side is trying to get the other side to fall into temptation while the other side is all innocent, it is a two-way street.
“the way men react to immodest clothing is exactly what makes women want to wear it” – agreed!!! but now I’m starting to def rethink what kind of men those are… probably not the one I want to attract anymore, are they?
Consider this can of worms opened….
I agree that this can become a point of legalism just like anything.
However…
Who here wants their pre-teen / tween / teenage daughter tramping it up? Hmmm??
Personally, I’ll reserve my immodest dress for only my husband’s eyes, thank you very much. And I’d like it very much if he and my son were not subjected to immodestly dressed women and girls all the time. I agree that there is personal responsibilty on his part, but there is on the female’s part as well. Which is why I ask him if I question whether or not something I’m wearing is appropriate.
That said, it’s all between each person and their heart before the Lord.
Now…. flame away. I can take it.
modest is hottest
I honestly think that 90% of the time women dress to impress other women.
I suppose that is a whole other issue.
as a woman I think you have a responsibility to be aware if what you are wearing is appropriate or not in any given situation (likewise to men).
To do our part in being classic, fashionable and lovely from the inside out so that we show some respect for the common struggle it seems most men deal with in their minds is never a bad thing.
One more comment – I would agree with everyone above who said it is a heart problem within us. For me, a man could be very appropriately dressed and act completely in harmony with Christ, but I can still feel lust – just from the way he smiles, or his beautiful eyes, etc. There is just no way to avoid that sort of thing and we just need to allow Christ to work on our hearts and minds.
so does that mean I can’t wear my skinny jeans?
Oh, those skinny jeans!!!! Sorry Maurilio, but I do feel those are inappropriate – just like those same type of jeans were inappropriate for women back in the 80′s. . .I know all the CCM stars are wearing them now, but oh, my! They are revealing.
I am all for modest dressing, but sometimes it is a matter of personal safety as well as personal taste. I have a friend who wants her daughters (and herself) to only dress in really baggy pants as to be modest even though she lets them wear short shorts. I perfer tight jeans for myself and my daughter as well as longer shorts. The harder it is for someone to get your jeans off the harder it would be for them to rape you. I know people talk about well she was dressed to sexy so she deserved it, but I trained in law enforcement years ago I know that men look for easy targets- ie dresses or loose pants that just pull right off. My intent isn’t to make anyone lust or sin but it is a personal choice that I feel comfortable with. I try to wear long shirts to cover up for more than one reason but it is a matter of balance for me.
Keep the skinny jeans. Lose the spandex.
Agreed
As others have mentioned, I believe strongly that the quest to honor modesty should be a two-way street. I realize that we ladies possess charms that men cannot resist. *sarcasm* But are we to believe that men are mindless buffoons who are continuously being duped by the opposite sex and lured into a web of thoughts and actions that are beyond their control…?
(And why are the possibilities related to attractive MEN almost never mentioned in these discussions?)
I really don’t appreciate it when the onus is put on women to cover up, without mentioning that men are responsible as well.
I’m one to hate anything legalistic & got burned pretty badly by a list of do’s & don’ts of Christianity. I love trends. I love cute clothes. But, like I said I grew up with crazy legalistic rules on clothing & rebelled & wore the shortest skirst I could find in college….
However, I agree that this is a heart issue. That we can’t be responsible fully for other people’s lusting issues or other women’s insecurities.
But, I do think that as a whole, we push the envelope. I think we know if something is a bit too short, a bit too low. Quite frankly, oooh, and this is gonna get me in trouble; but the obsession even among Christian women of having their breasts enhanced gets really sketchy. (I know there are legitimate reasons for this at times.) I do think some of us need to be told bluntly to put some more clothes on and get a bit more of a clue. I think we have naively followed trends and excused things that we know are inappropriate. I’ve been hearing a lot lately from my fellow sisters who have struggled with why other women show so much cleavage in small groups or around their husbands. My perspective is for married women right now. I’ve heard from women saying, I’m not trying to judge her; but I’m trying to understand how not to feel weird when I can see her entire chest in the middle of our couples’ group. That’s the kind of thing that does need to be handled, and I think because we swing so far away from being legalistic and judgmental that we (as woman as a whole) have let this issue slide a bit too much.
And again, I know this can swing too far to legalism. I’m just trying to point out that in our defense to be NOT too judgy & legalistic we may be letting some things slide or making excuses for ourselves.
I am confused now. As a woman, I too have noticed a man on a bicycle with his shirt off who was very attractive. Was it wrong for me to think he was attractive? I didn’t think about DOING anything with him or think about him without (the rest of) his clothes on. I am married. Was that lustful? Is it bad to notice that someone is “hot”?
And I’m also confused because my husband thinks the strangest things are sexy. Like a skirt that is loose, knee length, and not sheer will drive him crazy but if I wore a denim mini skirt not so much. He doesn’t like me in the tight stretchy jeans (I don’t really either) but he thinks the cowgirl type jeans are hot. But he always thinks skirts are hotter than pants so I don’t know why pants are so “immodest”? I am confused.
I wouldn’t over analyze it Jamie.
I think there is a big difference between “noticing” and “lusting”.
In that case, I agree that it is a matter of the heart. I looked up lust and it is defined as a strong sexual desire. I agree that woman should definitely not dress in a way to entice men on purpose, but I believe men are fully capable of looking at women the same way I look at the biker with his shirt off. He is attractive. That may be more noticeable because he has his shirt off, but it still does not trigger a “strong sexual desire”. There is a difference between acknowledging beauty and wanting that person for yourself. If a man wants someone who is dressed “immodestly,” that is his problem. A woman should never try to make him want her, but ultimately if his heart was in the right place, he wouldn’t.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, clothes can make you notice a person, notice something you might not have if they were wearing something else. But clothing cannot MAKE a man lust, make him desire, etc.
I believe the poll is too legalistic….no two halter tops are the same and as someone pointed out, it’s kind of different if you’re in FL or something where it’s hot. My husband doesn’t prefer halter tops so letting men decide seems silly because all men have different opinions…
I guess what I need to think when getting dressed is that God sees what I’m wearing right now. Would I feel uncomfortable wearing this outfit in front of Jesus? Then I probably shouldn’t wear it out in public.
Men need to renew their mind. They can suggest to their wife and daughters what they would prefer them not to wear in public but they can’t set standards for everybody.
Modesty is big in the US. I can’t imagine how most Americans would respond to the immodesty that happens in Germany. According to this culture, nudity is okay. The funny thing is we Americans love movies like Braveheart but Germans cringe at it because movies like that are too violent.
One’s view of modesty is different in every country so it is up to us men to renew our minds.
Short answer with the disclaimer that this is the SHORT answer and I haven’t read any other comments.
Yes, men bear their own responsibility for their sin when lust. However, if your look up the definition of the old biblical word “lasciviousness”, you’ll see the ladies bear their own responsibility when they sin by causing men to lust. And yes, lust is caused by what men see most of the time. It’s the way we’re wired. We have to learn to manage it, but many times we can’t help what’s put in front of our eyes. It’s a pavlovian dogg kind of thing, only with the dog being responsible for his reaction to the stimulus.
Simplified answer and not comprehensive, but there you go.
Here’s my frustration with this issue as a mother of a 6 year old daughter… it is getting more and more difficult to get her clothes that aren’t geared toward the teenage look. She’s a child, can I not just allow her to be a child? Other than that, I totally agree with this man’s thoughts. I also love what his wife had to say.
http://www.nogreaterjoymom.com/2010/08/anthony-shares.html
The argument that women should have any effect on a mans sin is ridiculous. Period!
Take King David for example (one of many) I don’t remember him saying to GOD, “come on God she should not have been out there looking so good” Then GOD saying back to David, “awh man I didn’t know, that’s cool then.”
See how ridiculous that sounds. Every man is responsible for his own thoughts and actions. Thank GOD for Jesus.
As for legalism, I don’t think bikini day at CrossPoint would go over very well.
I think there is a difference between legalism and common sense. Women don’t have control over what a man does with the thought, but they know exactly what they are doing when they deliberately appear in skimpy clothes. The Bible calls for modesty. I believe it means modesty in lifestyle, appearance, etc…
Dang it…now I’m going to have to throw out half of my wardrobe!
I am all about modesty and dressing appropriately. But I think this could be more harmful to women than helpful. Saying things like “Seeing a girl’s chest bounce when she is walking or running is a stumbling block” is very harmful to a young girl’s self-image. There are women who are made in such a way that there is not a thing they can do to prevent that. Making it sinful for her to simply be a created body is absolutely harmful.
Exactly!
Amen!
Oh boy. Thanks for posting this. Frankly, I fear that I would have been labeled some radical feminist if I had even brought up this topic.
And yes, it can get legalistic. I believe that both men and women are responsible for modesty, not just outward modesty in terms of what we wear but also “inward modesty” in terms of what we think. If we allow Jesus to be Lord, then the other stuff has to get in line. Just sayin…
Perhaps I’m just abnormal, but I find conservative dress much more attractive than revealing clothing. Lust is not removed from the picture by covering up. While I certainly would encourage my daughter to maintain a certain level of modesty in her dress (which I’m proud to say she does, with no input from me), I feel the responsibility does lie with the male to take captive his lustful thoughts and avoid situations that would encourage them.
I believe that this is an important topic.. not from a legalistic standpoint.. but from a transformation/application standpoint.
Men and women should both think about what drives the reasons for the way they dress. AND how their dress may impact those around them which goes beyond just modesty. There can be dress that is appropriate in some situations that is completely unacceptable in others so we have to think about context.
I am not going to offer my opinion on how ladies could dress because it would be my opinion. I know in my household, my opinions are not always popular with my ladies (wife and 2 teenage daughters).
I will say this, women may not fully comprehend how a man’s mind works when it comes to visual stimuli. If ladies don’t leave much to the imagination, the men don’t have a long way to go in their minds before sin begins.
As an example, I will relate this story.
I was recently talking to a Christian lady who is one of the most godly examples that I could point my daughters to as a good witness in Christ. During our conversation, she brought up the issue of modesty for young ladies and how it was a shame that her husband had to stare at the floor during service because a lady a couple of rows ahead of her was wearing a dress that exposed most of her back. While she was relating this story to me she was completely unaware that I was purposely staring at the river and trees (we were on a youth canoeing trip) because she was exposing, what was to me, a lot of cleavage.
I have read Every Man’s Battle and attempt to do my best to ‘bounce my eyes’. There are times that I probably look like a man with a neurological tic or run the risk of seeming rude or disinterested in a conversation.
This is an issue that belongs to both the man and the woman. It is also an issue that we need to be able to communicate about because I think there is a level of unawareness that if addressed in a mature manner would develop into mutual grace and not legalism or oppression.
My husband once said to a couple of young girls (a couple of years before we married) “Do you realise what you do to men when you wear those clothes?” Both girls in question were modestly dressed, but 23 years later still remember!
My main reference to myself and gentle reminder to people (male or female) is “Do I/you really want this image to remain in someone’s head. We are all visual and I think that if I don’t want someone thinking of me in that outfit, it’s not the right outfit to wear. I’ll add something to cover an area or change it.
My daughter covers up quite a lot (and being winter here it is very easy to layer-up at the moment). And has done since she was about 7 and wanted to wear a cute outfit her Gran had given her to church (skirt with top that tied in the front). Her Dad’s response was “do you really think you should wear that to church?” At the time it was a harmless outfit, but that has really stayed with her (she also never wore what had been her favourite outfit for the 6 weeks up until that day).
Modesty, though comes from within our hearts. And if we are secure in who we are through Jesus and other relationships (fathers, husbands, etc.) then we aren’t going to be wanting to put ourselves out there in clothes that make us feel good because of the attention.
*My husband had commented on someone in the street wearing a bikini top with shorts when he was with the girls*
Some good comments.
We women have huge responsiblities in this area….out of love for our brothers. This world makes it increasingly difficult to remain sexually pure – expecially for men. And we gals ought to do all that we can to avoid being part of the problem.
When looking at my wardrobe and wondering whether or not an outfit is appropriate or not, I hope I’ll always err on the side of modesty.
(And we can look plenty cute without showing the skin.)
I think the responsibility rests solely on the man, regardless of how a woman dresses. It is ultimately the man’s choice as to whether or not he will allow the sight of a woman wearing immodest clothing to cause him to sin.
While I believe that both men and women should dress as modestly as possible, we are ultimately the ones responsible for how closely we follow the Lord’s Commandments and if we allow Satan to lead us astray.
I still do not understand why Christian churches emphasize that men are visually stimulated while ignoring the fact that women have an equal capacity to be sexually aroused through visual stimuli. In fact, studies (I don’t have the references handy) have shown that when viewing pornography, women respond physically MORE than men do. And, a relatively recent study demonstrates that while heterosexual men respond to images of naked women and homosexual men respond to images of naked men, women respond in a sexual way equally to naked men and naked women regardless of their own sexual orientation.)
I am not using this information to start a conversation about homosexuality or whether people should be interacting with pornography but simply to say that the Christian tradition of dividing men and women into camps of “the visually stimulated” and the “the stimulators” is, in my opinion, archaic and way off base both scientifically and personally.
How can women ever really trust men if they think they only thing men are interested in is sex? How can men ever really trust women if they think the only thing women are interested in is getting them to think about or screw up in (HA!)the area of sex?
We are all sexual beings. And we are all MORE THAN sexual beings. If only men and women could be honest and more gracious and move toward trust instead of fear and control…
Here’s a link to support my above comments for those who are interested. However, those of you who read only things written from a traditional Christian and Biblical perspective will likely be offended by some of the information:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all
“…the Christian tradition of dividing men and women into camps of “the visually stimulated” and the “the stimulators” is, in my opinion, archaic and way off base both scientifically and personally.”
Thank you for posting this. I find it both hilarious and annoying that today, in 2010, people still think that woman don’t or simply CAN’T get turned on visually. Or, even when such a thing is acknowledged, the information is softened somehow. I once read a passage where the author admitted it was possible for women to be visually stimulated. Yet he went on and rhapsodized about how this was somehow directly tied into women’s emotions.
I would be really, really impressed if someone who had a decent amount of influence over the Christian majority was willing to get real and be honest when it came to discussing Christian women and their sexuality. The stuff that’s out there right now seems to be a lot of nonsense.
here’s an interesting question to ponder when you take that final look in the mirror before going out the door . . .”What exactly are you advertising, and is it really for sale?” Does someone see your clothes (or lack of them) first, or do they notice “you”?
Interesting that this should pop into my mailbox today because yesterday I bought a dress without trying it on, I know, big mistake. It is a cute cotton v-neck with sleeves and hem below the knee. When I finally tried it on at home I looked down and even though my undergarments were covered it still felt like I would only wear it at home. When I was in my early 20′s I would have had no problem wearing this dress in public – I have to admit I probably wore way more revealing clothes. I think it is an indication of maturity, self-esteem and security to dress your body instead of undress it. So on to the can of worms part… it is both women and men who have to check themselves. What I don’t like is that so many people get hung up on what someone else is choosing for themselves. So you don’t approve of the way someone is dressed – It doesn’t mean they are “bad” – get over it, move on, show them love anyway. Maybe that is the example they were given. The best lesson I ever learned is that you can only control you.
Absolutely it is possible to get legalistic regarding appropriate and modest clothing. The fear of being legalistic oftens compels us to teaching nothing.
The best way to teach modesty is to model it and lead by example. Modesty is a responsiblity males and females to bear equally. While I have no real answers to the question at hand, it is easy to see that modesty develops as a person draws closer to Christ.
Blake Bergstrom recently spoke about modesty-5B’s and a T. It lays it. Crystal clear expectations for modest dress.
I run everything past my husband. I am a small figure but have large breasts, so I’m painfully aware of what I can and can’t wear, but sometimes, the outfit may hover on the line. I tend to err on the side of caution, but I appreciate my husband who understands my struggles and is very fair in his evaluations of outfits. Some outfits past the muster for dates, for example, but not church. Some are no good in either instance. As someone who used to be right into porn (but now has overcome!) he is a wonderful sounding board on what might cause an issue in that area.
This also gives me the protection of my husband if anyone complains. (and some have. Big boobs are hard to hide, regardless of what you wear). I am able to respond that the outfit has my husbands stamp of aproval as appropriate, and if they wish to discuss it with him, they are free to do so.
Why is this almost always one way? How guys dress can be an issue for women sometimes.
This is an issue very dear to my heart, and something I love to speak to groups about because our views as a culture are pretty divided, mixed-up, condemning, and in some ways unhealthy.
I completely agree this is a heart issue, and that the only way to make true change is by addressing it at that level. Both genders need to take responsibility, and both genders need to change. Honestly, we often ask the wrong questions. Can I wear this? What is permissible? How far can I go?
We need a change of heart to understand who we are as a creation of God. We are beautiful! He made us this way for a purpose and it is a blessing, not a curse. He has asked us to be responsible for his creation and to treat it with great care and respect. That includes caring for our bodies and treating them in healthy ways. He also has placed us here in community with both believers and non-believers. We are not responsible for others, but if our hearts are transformed to truly love our neighbor then we will start asking different questions like: How can I best represent Christ to my neighbor through how I dress? How can I balance the hot weather, while also living and dressing in a way that presents my body as a sacrifice for the Lord so that I can be used by him no matter where he leads me? My body is the temple of the living God, am I loving him in how I am treating and presenting my body?
One of the things that still is a taboo subject in many Christian circles is that women can be struggle with lust, visual stimulation, and pornography just like men. Most women do not even have a clear understanding of what men struggle with, but we accept that men do lust and respond visually. That has become culturally accepted. The women I know who have struggled with pornography and lust (not an area I struggle) feel like outcasts, and deal with great shame.
Pete, thank you for being willing to open a conversation that needs to happen more. Most of the groups I talk to about this are teenagers and young adults. Those groups often only think about their peers. It seems to wrong to admit that we might find someone far outside of our age group attractive, or that someone far older/younger might find us attractive. Modesty and living out our faith in how we dress is something that shows great love toward the young, the old, the saved, and the unsaved. It truly is a universal issue and one that is in direct opposition to the values of our American culture. I hope more church leaders will open the door for discussion rather than just dictating how behavior should be modified because that doesn’t change the heart.
I am glad you are talking about this. My husband and I (3 boys) have really struggled with this issue. It is just so difficult for our youth and young adults to understand what is acceptable and what is not in the area of dress. The standard will be different for everyone and every culture.
Personally, I think the core of the issue is respect. As an American we are bombarded with the “I” and “me” syndrome. We want to be noticed so we go to extremes. The culture glorifies this behavior and soon the bar is raised in order to gain the attention in this attention starved society.
Women need to be taught to respect themselves and others around them. Men need to be taught the same. This begins with respecting an loving yourself and seeing yourself with the love that God has for each of us personally.
Ultimately from a social point of view, this is a human flaw that only the Lord can work out through us. A faith that isn’t worked out is weak and lacks character. The struggle is what gives birth to purpose, character and Christ-like behavior. It is the exposure to the struggle which reveals wisdom. The man made standard will always be insufficient to cover the multitude of ways a heart can find to sin.
It is our response which is always the well-spring of a human heart not the length of a skirt (although it does have a huge impact in so many ways).
Focus on the heart not the attire. Focus on the heart not the external package.
hmmmm… guess the jury is still out on this one for me. As someone who grew up dressing very modestly but was “blessed” (?) with a very curvaceous figure and a “victim” of unwanted attention regardless of what I wore and who took the whole “whoever looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” passage very much to heart, I’m still at a loss as to how to dress. I struggled with my weight for years because I didn’t want to be “skinny” and “attractive” and cause a man to lust, but I was also burdened by false guilt up until the age of 32 when my eyes were finally opened to the reality that its NOT A SIN TO BE BEAUTIFUL!!! But the church gets so legalistic about this issue and the devil gets us to confuse beauty and attractiveness and whats modest or immodest or who’s responsibility is who’s, etc, etc, etc… the whole subject just causes my head to spin. I will say that after reading the whole survey and the actual results, it definitely has caused me to stop and think a little more about the way I dress. I am guilty of a LOT of the “sins” of immodest dress according to this survey and I admit there was a time I did in fact do it for the attention… but there are also styles that are popular now that I wouldn’t have even considered to be immodest or sexual in any way shape or form. Coming from a household of women and a father who doesn’t voice his opinion on such matters it was definitely eye-opening. But that’s the thing… too many man (based on their comments) would ASSUME a woman is being immodest based on their dress and cast her aside when she may in fact BE completely clueless about the “wrong signals” she is sending… that is where it would be extremely helpful if you men were to speak up more loudly and often when you see a woman dressed in such a way because when a guy IS falling all over us cause we happen to be wearing XYZ a particular evening – THAT message is the one we are hearing – i.e. dressing this way gets me attention and THIS is what guys like. ’nuff said…
I really appreciate your comment. For some of us, our God-given figures could be considered risque. Clothes that fit, are modest and still trendy or cute are difficult to find, and if we wear really baggy clothes then we just look terrible, and I know that God didn’t create me to hide in shame. I am careful with how I dress, but it’s annoying to know that certain clothes would be considered completely modest on other women, but are crossing the line for me. It’s frustrating. And don’t even get me started on bathing suits!