This Book Ticks Me Off
I’m currently reading one of the most controversial books I’ve read in a while, it’s called Mere Churchianity. This book has ticked me off so many times as I’ve read through it, but it’s also convicting me along the way. While I disagree with some of what the author says I’ve also found myself at other times wanting to stand up and cheer.
I wish the author, Michael Spencer, was still living (he died this past April right before the book was released) because I think I would have enjoyed sitting down with him over dinner and discussing his ideas on Jesus, community, and the Church. It’s been a while since I’ve found someone I so passionately disagree with at times and yet somehow still understand where he’s coming from. I might be wrong, but I think we would have been good friends.
Anyway, I thought I would pull a little section of something he wrote for us to chat about today. Try this on…
We have a culture-war spirituality that produces Christians who might never share their faith but are ready at a moment’s notice to debate politics, abortion and civil union for gay couples. It is a spirituality that calls down fire on its enemies and shapes its followers into intolerant soldiers waging a morality crusade. Its kingdom is the eventual triumph of moral conservatism, and its spirituality is conflict and argument.
Can we honestly say that Jesus was a culture warrior? Can we say that the spirituality of Jesus is geared to turning you into a noisy talk-radio pundit? Is our anger at the decline of culture really a dependable guide toward the experience of God?
Your thoughts?
56 Comments:
I have only read bits and pieces of this book but I have to say that he’s hit the nail on the head. You are salt of the earth Pete, but the culture of church has to change, adapt, and grow. We can’t get locked into religion (as I once heard you preach at Crosspoint), we have to get locked into Christ.
tim
Timothy Kurek´s last blog ..And life goes on-
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:25 am
Totally agree Tim. Just not ready to give up on the church yet.
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Ally Reply:
July 15th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Anyone who has read Michael Spencer over the years knows that for as much as it might sound like it at times – he certainly never gave up on the Church. I think he just had a gift for understanding those that did – because I think he often probably would have if he hadn’t believed in the local church as strongly as he did. Believing that a lot of churches are no better than no church, and recognizing that many have left already, is not the same as believing we should give up on the church.
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Ally Reply:
July 15th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
and just to clarify since I just read some comments from another Ally further down the list – this is a different one – sorry for any confusion I may have caused (I just stumbled across this blog today as someone had linked to this post)
Seth Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 10:47 am
The book unchristian saya alot of the same stuffoutsiders see us as intolerant unloving gay bashing hipocrits. Is that all we are is known for what we are against
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I think we’re doing a little better in some of the areas but honestly the press doesn’t help us out much. Tends to be the extreme Christians who get interviews and air time.
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Timothy Kurek
5:52 am
Gosh, wish I wasn’t the first to comment. That passage really hurts my heart, but because I believe it is true. Or at least I can say that I see it. I get it.
Fortunately, I don’t feel that way about our church specifically.
I know many Christians (way too many) who will not share their faith. Even when encouraged, they feel they were not designed to evangelize because it makes them too uncomfortable, but they will praise Jesus all day long in the face of other Christians doing the same. And they will stand up for other rights with fierce defense as long as they don’t have to utter the name of Jesus.
There are yet many who will share their faith along with condemnation. They go to church. You have to wonder what they are being taught.
Our anger at the decline of culture….well, how do you balance that with the anticipation and hope for eternity with Christ? The bible says to be slow to anger, and promotes love in all situations. The anger sure won’t win hearts or increase the flock.
My jumbled thoughts.
Melissa Irwin´s last blog ..Times 3
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Melissa Irwin
6:00 am
Pete,
I have not read Mere Churchianity yet, though if it resemebles Spencer’s previous writings, I suspect my response would be much like yours. I emailed Mr Spencer last year after reading one of his posts on I-monk, and told him that he was the blogger I most hated to love. I went on to expound that I often wanted to pull out my hair, but that he was also deeply convicting. He wryly responded, as was so often his way, telling me that if I would just agree with everything he wrote, all would be OK.
I think I would have liked to see him sit down with Keving DeYoung, who is so passionately in support of the church. That may have been an interesting dialog.
Spencer will be missed, though I hope his writings and deep thinking will live on.
Best,
Jason
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Jason Kanz
6:01 am
Pete,
I would love to disagree with Michael Spencer’s quote. Unfortunately, it rings true all to much to disregard.
Wouldn’t it be a tragedy if we got to the end of our lives, and the best that could be said of us was that we were “good moral Americans?”
Dave Wilson (no relation to Pete, unfortunately)
Dave Wilson´s last blog ..Will the Vuvuzela love never end
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:26 am
I bet we’re related somehow.
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Dave Wilson
6:06 am
Strange isn’t it? The desire to preach and proclaim and yet the sinful heart all twisted up to shout things that are good but not best.
The whole ‘culture’ & Jesus intersection question is an interesting one. How should the church influence and speak truth into the culture? There certainly are issues that need a voice, and sometimes a strong one. But often the issue is that we have not gained any right or credibility or permission to speak into those issues. And so then, it is just yelling.
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Terra
6:26 am
I only got introduced to Mike Spencer in the last year, and he had a hell of an impact on me in a very short amount of time.
My favorite post of all time is here:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/from-the-imonk-archives-when-i-am-weak-why-we-must-embrace-our-brokenness-and-never-be-good-christians
NOT for the faint of heart.
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Thanks for sharing Evan!
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Julie Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 10:09 am
Evan, I can’t thank you enough for sharing this link. I needed to read this today. I truly believe this was a direct answer to prayer for me. Pete, thanks for being real and not avoiding the hard stuff.
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Tom Raines Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Thanks Evan, I will have to read more from Mr. Spencer. Glad he left this with us before his death. This is really a great piece that I will have to re-read. Love the brutal honesty and need to rely on God without ceasing.
Tom Raines´s last blog ..Today’s Affirmation- I find blessings at the end of the rope
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Evan Reply:
July 14th, 2010 at 8:15 am
The bit that kills me in that article is the story about the doctor and the cancer patient. “One is not bold in an encounter with the divine.” It sends chills down my spine.
Jesus defined “eternal life” in John 14 as “know(ing) you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” The question that I can’t escape when I read that story is whether I, were I that surgeon, would be able to recognize the presence of Christ, or would I dismiss it cynically as a beautiful lie? Have I been so corrupted by caricatures of Him, both those presented to me and those of my own invention, that I would fail to recognize and worship Him? Would I step back and silently send thanks heavenward for this reminder of His love?
I like to think so, but I’m also pretty jaded sometimes.
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Evan
6:29 am
I just starting reading “The Screwtape Letters” and this really has alot to do at what he is getting at IMO.
I think it causes us to think it through and not just go on what we have been taught/told all our lives.
I love that you think you would be good friends…to me that tells me all I need to know.
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cshell
6:31 am
Wish I didn’t agree so much, but I do. I’m reading a very different book right now–a novel called Life of Pi by Yann Martel. It discusses religion, Christianity and others. I was so struck by a particular passage that I wrote it down. I wonder if Mr. Spencer would agree with this author’s observation:
“There are always those who take it upon themselves to defend God, as if Ultimate Reality, as if the sustaining frame of exsistence, were something weak and helpless. These people walk by a widow deformed by leprosy begging for a few paise, walk by children dressed in rags living in the street, and they think, “business as usual.” But if they perceive a slight against God, it is a different story. Their faces go red, their chests heave mightily, they sputter angry words. The degree of their indigntion is astonishing. Their resolve is frightning.
These people fail to realize that it is on the inside that God must be defended, not on the outside. They should direct their anger at themselves. For evil in the open is but evil from within that has been let out. The main battlefield for good is not the open ground of the public arena but the small clearing of each heart. Meanwhile, the lot of widows and homeless children is very hard, and it is to their defense, not God’s, that the self-righteous should rush.”
katdish´s last blog ..Playing Catch-up by Billy Coffey
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Michael Raburn Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 8:44 am
“Whenever you feel the need to defend God, you can be sure you are worshipping an idol.” – Stanley Hauerwas
Michael Raburn´s last blog ..Can a woman be an apostle Besides Junia
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katdish
6:40 am
“Can we honestly say that Jesus was a culture warrior?”
Yes. He was a culture warrior. Just by the way He showed us how to live He ran counter to the culture of the day and made a difference. Maybe not a “culture warrior” in the Bill O’Reilly definition of the word but He was out there changing the culture that was none too happy about Him doing it.
As for the rest of your quote, I’d have to see it in more context to see how he defines things like “intolerant soldiers waging a morality crusade.” Just because you don’t support abortion it doesn’t mean you’re intolerant (and I’ve heard that said.)
Jason´s last blog ..A revelation from God
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Jason
6:42 am
i’ve not read the book, but you’ve touched on something that ticks me off, pete. i hope i’m not letting my anger control my comments; i’ll attempt to be strong, but without rage:
i’m incredibly frustrated at how we politicize our faith and attempt to legislate morality. God has given us freedom of choice — why would we not allow others to experience the same? we would seek to remove liberty in an attempt to force others into our particular moral and religious molds. how arrogant of us. and unfair.
and if that were not enough, we’re inconsistent. we seek to debate and enforce only those issues with which we ourselves do not struggle. some of us will fight long and hard to make homosexuality (or marriage within that preference) illegal — but we cry like babies when others seek to form tax laws in such a way that the poor are taken care of.
i think we christians (generalization coming) are a closed, arrogant, and inconsistent group of people. we’d rather be “right,” argue to prove it, and surround ourselves with others like us than act like Jesus.
JamesBrett´s last blog ..brett’s morning blend 13jul10
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Tony York Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:58 am
James,
I agree that we should not try to politicize our faith. However, and I think you will probably agree with me, we should still vote our beliefs.
While I am not a picketer, striker, or placard waiver, if given a chance, I would vote against laws that supported abortion. We are a government of the people so to remove the morality, beliefs, spirtuality, or faith from the person who wishes to be a voice of the government is paramount to denying the reason we were given a voice in the first place.
I struggle with where the line is that Christians should not cross when it comes to ‘legislating morality’. How much time, effort, and money should go into helping shape laws that we believe protect versus limit?
I have an analogy that I have used in the past. I call it Left-Lane-Logic. In the United States, the left lane on the highway is called the passing lane or the fast lane. I will readily admit that I struggle with staying at or under the posted speed limit and that I become frustrated with persons who are in the ‘fast lane’ who are obeying the posted limits. While those persons are right and justified to be going the speed limit (as long as they are passing other vehicles), I am being limited to choose to go faster than the speed limit by their ‘ethics’. And that just frustrates me.
Many times when Christians try to legislate their faith they are perceived as those law-abiding citizens who are in the fast lane impeding the traffic of those who wish to ignore those limits.
I could go on and talk about how that person in the left lane should really get over to the right lane… or I could mention that it is the responsibility of the police officer to maintain the law rather than the law abiding citizen going 65 in the fast lane… to bring in other aspects of this analogy.
However, I would like to point out that there are certain highway postings that we all should want to be enforced.. like going the wrong way on the highway. While speeding is ‘wrong’.. going the wrong way on the highway is ‘wronger’.
So, as Christians, are we making decisions to limit or for safety?
It’s a tough arena.
Tony York´s last blog ..Getting some Nooky
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JamesBrett Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
tony, i’m with you on most of this (just as you suspected). i also vote against abortion. as for me, i draw the line here: we should seek to protect life and liberty in any and every situation in which another individual’s life and liberty is not at stake.
abortion, i vote against. there is an ability to live life at stake — there is A life at stake.
homosexual marriage, i vote for. these people have every right to search for happiness wherever they think they may find it — as long as they’re not preventing others from doing the same. now, i don’t think they’re going to find true happiness that way — but i also don’t think overeaters will (and we not only let them try, but encourage it at church potlucks). nor will the greedy or the selfish or those who place themselves in positions of power hoping to find joy.
so, while i don’t think homosexual marriage is what God intended, i still don’t vote with my beliefs, because it doesn’t seem to me to be the way God treats us. it also just seems unfair; would i want the same done to me? what if pagans believe this whole God idea harms more people than it helps — should they vote to not allow churches to meet?
i vote against seatbelt laws for adults driving alone in their cars. i think i’d vote for polygamy, if the issue ever arose in american culture. i’d also probably go for the legalization of marijuana (from what little i’ve read about it).
so i vote for freedoms, when these freedoms don’t infringe upon the rights of others — regardless of how i feel about said freedom.
JamesBrett´s last blog ..brett’s morning blend 13jul10
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Tony York Reply:
July 14th, 2010 at 7:21 am
James,
I think you and I are on the same wavelength as far as protecting versus limiting. Of course, our definitions of protection may be a little different but not so far apart. I appreciate your thoughts and care that you put into your response.
Tony York´s last blog ..Getting some Nooky
JamesBrett
6:48 am
i am going to have to check the book out.
the passage you posted is what i have struggled for years with in the American church. The fact that we pursue morality or our vision of it. In fact we trade the glory of Christ for what we consider clean living. A glimpse of the true Christ that would change us and grow us is not what we seek because that would mean giving up control. the book i’m reading right now is making me cry tears of shame daily due to the fact that i’m often more about things about Christ than i am about Christ.
Pete, i love getting the email with your blog every day. you cause me to think, you’re not afraid to admit the truth in your life, and you allow Christ to redeem so many things in you. keep at it my friend.
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Thanks Chuck.
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Chuck Harris
7:39 am
I feel the magnifying glass cooking me like a bug in the sunlight…
aspires2b´s last blog ..Book review- ‘Cast of Characters’
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aspires2b
7:45 am
It’s hard to swallow, but I must agree.
I rarely listen to the radio but just yesterday I turned the radio on in my car and found the only Christian radio station on the dial. I’m not sure who was speaking but he was spewing venom toward Lindsay Lohan, Lady Gaga, and anyone else currently in the limelight who were associated with questionable morality.
After a brief and scattered rant he signed off, telling all of us listeners how much he loves us and how much God loves us.
If Lindsay Lohan and Lady Gaga were listening, I think they’d have trouble believing him. I sure did.
It’s easy for us to point the finger and condemn. But that’s not our job. To paraphrase Billy Graham, it’s God’s job to judge, the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, and it’s our job to love.
When I had strayed as far as I possibly could from God, the voices of condemnation kept me away. Thankfully, the voices of love brought me back.
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Larry Hehn
7:58 am
I think I’m going to track down a copy of this book and read it.
Michelle Brown´s last blog ..An Experience
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Michelle Brown
8:12 am
That passage is totally where my frustrated heart is right now with church/christian culture. Having to constantly explain why I’m not picketing about abortion laws….can you imagine if one of my post-abortion clients saw me doing that? How that might make them feel? (Judged…)
Larry – I think you’ve got it so right (or Billy Graham does) – It’s God’s job to judge, the Holy Spirit’s to convict, our job to love.
I do believe the christian pundits, the placarding folks are in the roles of the pharisees. And I sure don’t want to be in their shoes. So I constantly have to check my self that yes…I want to be CHRIST like…not pharisee like.
Laura Anne´s last blog ..Reflections on meeting friends ‘in-real-life’…
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Laura Anne
8:19 am
I haven’t read the book, but the first question that was part of your quote caught my attention.
Can we honestly say that Jesus was a culture warrior?
While I don’t think that was His primary definition while on earth, I would say that He took on the religious culture that had replaced the true understanding of God and His kingdom (Pharisaical). But this was a by-product of His truth – not a specific mentality of ‘I-am-going-to-show-you’.
Truth is not controversial for controversy’s sake. It is controversial because it cuts to the core of lies and deception. Motivation behind why we speak truth goes along way in how it is received, however. That is why I thoroughly enjoy listening to men like Ravi Zacharias who can so humbly present truth in an loving and adamant manner.
I know that I need to do a better job of applying 1 Peter 3:15
“but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence”
Tony York´s last blog ..Getting some Nooky
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Well said Tony.
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Carol Asher Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 9:56 am
I agree. Well said.
Carol Asher´s last blog ..Got Camp
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Tony York
8:47 am
Honestly cannot disagree with him.
I think we are more of a Glen Beck Christian society then one that looks like Jesus. Now that might be a loaded statement. But over the past 6 months the christians that I have encountered are very eager to discuss with me freedom of religion and God and State over Grace and Salvation.
It reminds me of something that Derek Webb talks about in his song “the state”
“Right and wrong were written on my heart
And not just in the laws that condemn me
Now with caesar satisfied I can even do the things
That should offend me”
This idea that we are okay with following the rules of the state then the bible. That these laws can convict us, but the teaching of scripture, love your enemies, give to the poor, love God are ones that are not convicting to us because they are not enforced by the state.
It such a tough place to be. But a very healthy conversation to have. Now I need to go and read this book.
Kyle Reed´s last blog ..A Letter To My Mom On Her Birthday
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Kyle Reed
9:13 am
I think part of the issue is a culture of individualism plays itself out in our Christianity. We are disconnected from people outside of our immediate family and friends, so we feel free to criticize them and look down on them while failing to recognize we don’t know them as well as we assume we do. In other countries, particularly in Africa and Latin America, there is a greater sense of extended ties to one another. While this kind of thinking does occur, there is a wider recognition of human depravity not just applying to others but to me. A recognition that my neighbor may need Christ but so do I. I am not done yet. I have been saved but I still have to be remade, the process isn’t over. Too often in the US, I run into people who assume they are already there. They’ve been reborn, saved and made “superior,” so now they can judge. It’s human nature to compete, and judging others as inferior to ourselves is one way we tend to do that, but what it has done is divide us from each other, make us come across as arrogant and self-righteous, hurt our witness, and numbed us to our need for Jesus. In fact, we get so convinced they’re hopeless, we stop trying to share the Gospel, because what’s the point. They’ll never get it. Their weird, false ideas are proof of that.
We do the same thing within the church. Denominations have so separated us that we forget all we have in common and, even more, that we are one universal church. That’s why I have often thought denominations are one of man’s great sins. Surely it must grieve the heart of God how divided we are, how far from the church of Acts 2 we have strayed.
None of this is what He wants for us. None of it was His intention. Those who once were found have become lost and blind again, and we need to recover our sight and our place.
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Bryan
9:46 am
Absolutely, amen, hallelujah! It’s no use waging war about the laws of abortion – or lack there of – when you won’t venture to minister or witness to the people trying to get one, who’ve had one, or believe they are essential to society. Jesus ministered to people. He spoke to people, he touched people. How many people are we actually talking to, with, and touching for Jesus? We are his body…
CFloyd´s last blog ..Fruitless is Pointless
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CFloyd
9:46 am
I haven’t read this book, but I’m thinking I might have to now. I’m not comfortable bashing a book by someone who can’t ever defend his thoughts, so I’ll just say that we need to do a lot less finger pointing at ALL people (brothers and sisters included!)and do a lot more loving.
I didn’t grow up in church so I feel really blessed that I don’t have the “baggage” that a lot of my frineds do. Plus at my church (Gateway Church), the whole foundation is “No Perfect People Allowed” and “Come as your are…just don’t stay that way.” John Burke has been given a wonderful vision to love people right exactly where they are, even if that means loving them high, drunk, in same sex relationships, etc. The Good News is for EVERYONE!
It is my deepest prayer that we could become a people that would seek to love at all cost and let the Holy Spirit of God do the work inside them.
We are commanded to love God first and then love everyone else. Why is that so hard?! Will Jesus ask me why I didn’t conquer homelessness or will he as me if I loved the homeless? Will he ask me if I conquered homosexuality or love the homosexual? I am not the Messiah. I am not the Holy Spirit, but I have been given a heart a flesh and I intend to use it until the very last beat.
I don’t want to solve the problems of this world, but what I do want to do is look Jesus in the face one day and tell him, “I loved as hard and as often as I could for the sake of YOUR name.” That is my passion and my mission. Everyting else just feels like a distraction and background noise.
Karin´s last blog ..The Warrior Bird
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Karin Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 10:08 am
I wanted to add something here to my last post, I do think we should share our faith. I just do it by using as little words as necessary. I have seen it time and time again in my own journey; you love them again and again and again until it just makes no sense in their mind why someone would keep loving them over and over again. Then you can share why. I so trust in the power of God’s love that I’m totally unafraid to give it away to everyone with no strings attached. I so believe in God’s work in and through the power of his love, I just don’t have time to allow myself to sit and think about all the ways “they” should get it together. Even us believers. We are in constant need of his love and grace just like the rest of this broken world.
I share my faith every chance I get and I have no fear in speaking about the wild and wonderful love of Christ. But peopel know when you love them and strings are attached, expecially the lost. Can we love without ever seeing “results” in a person? Can we love others fully trusting that God will use every hug, word, and act of service that we pour out into the world even if we don’t?
Can’t we trust the Holy Spirit of God working in and through our love?
Karin´s last blog ..The Warrior Bird
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Hey Karin. Just to clarify. I hope you don’t think I’m in any way bashing this book. I learned a lot from this book and while I don’t agree with certain things Michael says I still very much respect him and his ministry.
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Karin
9:51 am
I’m honestly feeling very torn and I think we could dissect even this quote that you shared sentence by sentence and find the pendulum swinging from agree to disagree from one sentence to the other. I adore how this man thinks so deeply. Yet, I am struck to the core that I wholeheartedly agree and yet disagree. How can that be? I see the truth in how we can be so passionate to speak out politically and determine to explain how we are right and doing so in the name of God but forget to share how to know that God. On the other hand I see Jesus breaking some of the sabbath rules because the rules became the god and not the relationship with the one and only God. I agree that we are so often arrogant and judgmental as a church but on the other hand we can be the first to forgive and reach out. We as a body are not always unified. I’m afraid I may be running this through my mind all day. I seem to be a bit confused on where I stand with this quote but I love the fact it has me stirred up and really thinking.
Carol Asher´s last blog ..Got Camp
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Carol Asher
9:54 am
I think this is true. There are Christians out there who exhibit all of the qualities that are discussed, and they seem to be the ones who are most vocal and get the most media airtime. What I find interesting is that, even though it is not said explicitly, it seems to be implied that this is soething new. A part of a current culture of moral decline. However, this is not something new. These people were around in the time of Christ, and have been around ever since. Every generation in history has groups of people condemning someone in the name of Christ. I think we need to be very, very careful how we view and respond to people like these. If we judge them the way they are judging “sinners” and condemn them as bad Christians then we become them. We have no more right to judge them than they have to judge others. We need to respond to them with the same grace and love that we give to those who know nothing of Christ. In fact they may need more grace and love. People don’t react badly to other peole unless they feel valueless inside and can find no other way around it than to try to feel superior to someone else.
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kendall
9:56 am
Pete,
I was unaware of the book but I am of two minds here. The love of Christ is not harsh and we must always be ready to share the message of Christ in His tenderness, but I find myself, at times, filled with righteous anger and sorrow at the things I see in both the church and the world. I do believe we must walk a fine line between the gentle love of the Savior and the defense of the faith.
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James Bowe
9:56 am
Kinnaman talks a lot about this (and has excellent statistics to back it up) in Unchristian.
I do agree with the statement, but I’m bummed by everyone wanting to simply quit the church because it’s become something we (maybe even rightly) disagree with. We aren’t abandoned when we walk away or when we take less-wild lovers.
I think it’s less about throwing up our hands in frustration and more about throwing up our hands in surrender – surrendering to the idea that sometimes, we can make this life thing all about us.
Sean´s last blog ..The Heart Has to Stay Here
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Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
My exact thoughts Sean. I don’t think the answer is to abandon the Church.
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Sean
10:00 am
i see things from a variety of points…. the loud “haranguers’ exist because there are some points that need to be defended. they draw the line to a certain degree. unfortunately some of them have also decided that they need to “save God” because He cannot do it Himself. (someone made that point above). Sometimes i think the line-drawers have been side-tracked from whatever God has called them to do by doing something that seems so “for God.”
i love church, too. i wish those who are always tearing her down would get in and try to love. they are just as guilty as the entrench on the other side.
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@LaureeAshcom
10:03 am
“We have a culture-war spirituality that produces Christians who might never share their faith but are ready at a moment’s notice to debate politics, abortion and civil union for gay couples.”
I gave up on politics about a year ago.
I like what he had to say in the quote you offered. Can’t wait to read the book.
David Knapp´s last blog ..4 Quotes To Becoming A Better Minister
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David Knapp
10:03 am
That paragraph from the book you included described me to a T…up unil a few weeks ago. Go back in my tweet history and you’ll see what i mean. The worst part is, i thought i was speaking on behalf of my faith, when the truth is just the contrary.
It took suffering through the unexpected death of someone very close to me (who was incidentally the closest thing to Christ i’ve ever encountered on this Earth) to see how wrong i was, how consumed w/ issues i’d become and not at all w/ my relationship with Christ. But that wasn’t what i learned in church, it wasn’t what i learned from the Bible, and it wasn’t at all where Christ wanted me. It was just my way of hiding out i suppose.
Do i still believe in those moral issues? Yes, certainly. But my focus now is on building a relationship with Christ that i’ve never had before. That’s the best way i can affect change in myself & others.
[Reply]
Ally
10:04 am
I agree with the statement, it’s a sad distinction of American Christianity today. At one point, dh and I had to turn the cable news commentary show off-it was making us too angry..and walk away. We are not of this world, and while we take seriously our voting responsibilities, thinking/worrying/debating so much about it takes away from our inner spiritual life. If we are more passionate about said topics than about our daily communing with the Savior, something is lacking and it will seep out into a lacking of your abiding with Him.
While we don’t voice opinions anymore about the latest horrible law proposals here in Ca, we are instead quietly helping the non-Christian friend pack to move, or sharing a meal. I wish these quiet testimonies were the ones the world noticed more. Bravo for this discussion.
[Reply]
Jenny, Home is Where
10:09 am
Looking forward to reading this
[Reply]
Danny Bixby
10:10 am
This is my 2nd biggest frustration as a Christian…because it’s true…for some…but not for (or in) all. I’m constantly writing letters in response to online news articles in which moral bigots and bullys run their mouths and give us all a bad name. “You need to know that we’re not all like this JERK!!!!” I write time and time again. But the squeaky wheel gets the attention…and man, can these right wing self-rightteous moral grenade launchers make noise. Begs the question, “How can the rest of us make more noise?” The response to our response as a church to the flood was a pretty good start. Pete, don’t think you bashed gays or liberals a single time!
[Reply]
Bill Renfrew
10:12 am
p.s…
@ally…I admire your bravery and your humility.
[Reply]
Ally Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Wow. Thank you. I wish i were those things. Truthfully, i’m not brave, just really broken. And any sense of humility you saw in my comment was because God had to humble me through a crisis, not because i lived my life like that. Quite the opposite i’m ashamed to say. But thank you so much for saying that. I pray that through Christ’s work in me i can honor Him by living up to that compliment. Many blessings to you
[Reply]
Bill Renfrew
10:15 am
Thanks for sharing! I haven’t read the book. I do agree with the fact that we, as a Christian church, seem to spew venom instead of love too many times. Not as far as the evil group you spoke of a few weeks back who show up at funerals and things but a judgement absent of love and mercy.
We ourselves who have received so much, why are we so much like the debtor who was forgiven his debt but would not forgive another. Due to this plank in my eye all I choose to do is tell others what I have seen and heard in my own story. I have seen that God saved me, He loves me and I have seen Him change my life and the lives of countless others. Is my story offensive to you?
My sin just has a different flavor than yours as we all sin. It is all sin and Jesus loves us this I know for the bible tells me so.
For some reason the church feels we fail if we don’t take a hard stand. We MUST take stand, this I agree. Loving our neighbor as ourself, how would we want them to confront us with their view of the truth?
Jesus is the model and I believe He showed love to the lost sinner and saved venom for the self righteous. May He show me where I am in that continuum.
Tom Raines´s last blog ..Today’s Affirmation- I find blessings at the end of the rope
[Reply]
Tom Raines
10:15 am
So far as the quote goes, it’s right on. I haven’t read him before but certainly will now. The confusion between culture and Christ will one day be seen as one of the greatest barriers to salvation for at least the last 150 years, if not more.
Our culture-worshipping traditions first produced a world-class case of Pharaisism (if there is such a word) – then turned us into jack-Pharisees who use grace and mercy to excuse and utter lack of transformation, making us even worse than Pharisees – we make the noise but don’t even try THAT much!
(sigh)
I hope the author goes somewhere constructive from here, but he sure appears to have nailed the laughable fallacy of doing Christianity from the outside in, rather than the inside out…
[Reply]
Kevin Cole
10:18 am
Pete-Great post. Changed hearts change culture, not vice-versa.
[Reply]
Gregory Scott
10:20 am
Wow, thanks for this post Pete!
This is a tremendous and appropriate challenge for the church and for each of us to face – especially if we tend to be strident or belligerent toward those with whom we disagree. It is, however, important to look at the whole picture with some biblical clarity before giving wholesale credence to the notion that we are all just “Christians who might never share their faith but are ready at a moment’s notice to debate politics…”
First, the big picture: 1 Cor 1:23 – This is who we are as a church corporately and as individual Christians – “We proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” There is no better way to explain why we are not patted on the back for our views.
And, at the outset, it is important to point out that Spencer presents a false premise made clear by reversing his logic. For example, IF a Christian WAS willing to share their faith would Spencer be okay with THAT Christian verbalizing a political view? Something tells me that he – like many who don’t share a conservative view on abortion or gay marriage – would STILL object to the view being expressed whether a Christian is faithfully sharing his faith or not.
So, we have to ask ourselves, as Christians should we be defending the defenseless unborn? Of course. How should we be doing it? In love – as Christ would.
Should we be afraid to express what we believe is the biblical truth about homosexuality? No. How should we be expressing that truth? In the same way we teach about adultery or tithing – that is to say – when the timing and the setting and the “walk” of the person we are sharing it with is at an appropriate point.
Conversely, should we be standing outside our church or on a street corner holding up placards that damn those who are in inappropriate relationships? Or holding up those awful signs with pictures of aborted babies on them? God forbid. Never! There is a time and a place to share the truth in love. And there are pregnancy help centers where we can serve in love. There are legislative means to help protect women and their unborn children – all of this can be done gently, lovingly, humbly.
When we publicly condemn “sinners” with a broad brush, we deserve to be criticized for it. But when we live out our faith (and our convictions) in love, we can pray that the world will see our “good works and glorify your Father in heaven.” – 1 Peter 2.
[Reply]
Mike in Milwaukee
10:28 am
The church is full of fallen human beings. We are all works in progress. When you realize that, even though you know and love Jesus, you’ve got your own stuff that you have struggled with, and are struggling with, it allows you to judge less and love more.
As Believers, we have to find the balance between condemning everyone and saying there is no sin. People have to understand they are sinners to see their need for a Savior, but they also need to see their Savior thru the love and compassion of His people.
[Reply]
Dee
10:28 am
Wow! Those are some powerful and challenging words.
Kevin M.´s last blog ..Summer is for making memories
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Kevin M.
10:34 am
Only my opinions here, and I haven’t read this book, but the situations he speaks of are undoubtedly occurring within church culture. The question is why…
I believe the answer may lie in Matthew 7:15-23
So many substitute the false gospel of moralism for the true gospel of Christ.
The solution to this is to re-examine the Cross of Christ and to learn who he really is and what he wants for all of us.
When Christ is represented correctly, people see him for who he really is. When Christ is misrepresented, books like this are written.
Love your heart Pete!
[Reply]
Craig Francis
10:41 am
Pete,
This discussion is timely for me. I am wrestling with the truth of church, community and the body of Christ. And the verse I keep coming back to is Luke 9:10, “For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.” Somewhere in the midst of church we lost or forgot that…so many churches and christians have forgotten why Christ came. They are so wrapped up in which business model is best or small group curriculum or worship team that rocks, that we’ve missed the point. Church has gotten far off track. I’ve actually heard Christians say that Christ died for the church…is that so? I thought He died for sinners, not a club.
And it breaks my heart. I grew up in church and often came across folks who had never shared their faith. So that I could be sitting next to an 80 year old man who has known God his whole life, outspoken on political issues and the first in line at potluck dinners, but not once has he stepped outside that church door and offered the truth of Christ to someone lost. And the truth is that we probably all know that man or woman. And we think church is healthy and ok.
I haven’t been to church in 20 months. My husband and I walked away. Did we give up on the church? No. We gave up on the definitions we had always known of what church is and how it functions and what it does. So right now I think we are redefining the old model of doing church the way it has always been done…
Stepping off my soap box.
ps if you have time I recently blogged about where I found church… http://jezamama.blogspot.com/2010/06/it-feels-like-church.html
Jessica´s last blog ..The Feathers Lie still
[Reply]
Pete Wilson Reply:
July 13th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Thanks for sharing Jessica. Praying you guys can find a community to be a part of soon.
[Reply]
Jessica
10:58 am
Hi Pete,
I am actually reading the same book myself right now and I am finding myself agreeing with more of what he is saying as it relates to the subculture of Christianity than disagreeing.
David
[Reply]
David Gallagher
11:04 am
Cultural issues have always been an entry point into spiritual issues, if we have the grace, sensitivity and wisdom to handle them. A simple example occurred when Pharisees asked Jesus about taxes. “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar,” Jesus said, then turned it to a spiritual point. “And give to God what belongs to God.”
The best part comes next. “His reply completely amazed them.”
The problem is not that Christians deal with cultural issues; the problem is only when we do not move past them to the more important spiritual issues.
[Reply]
Randy Robison
11:17 am
Sadly, I agree with this statement from the book. That has been my experience over the last 36yrs. Recently I have met some followers that this would not be true. My struggle now is that I am called to love these christian people his paragraph describe. I must give grace to everyone-even the people I used to EXACTLY like. That’s why they are called blindspots.
[Reply]
lizfentondecker
11:32 am
Love your ministry Pete.
[Reply]
steve jesmer
11:52 am
This has to be one of the most provoking, albeit REFRESHING quotes I’ve read in quite some time!!!
sam dula´s last blog ..Busy Summer at Blueprint Church
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sam dula
1:44 pm
“intolerant soldiers waging a morality crusade”
Wow, that hurts. I have no doubt made mistakes and embraced intolerance thinking that I was taking the moral high road.
I am ever so thankful for an understanding Lord who has shown me the truth.
If I am being Christ-like, I am an understanding, tolerant servant embracing the immoral and immodest. In my own life, I strive to be humble, modest, and moral. Yet I strive equally to embrace and build relationships with those who choose otherwise.
[Reply]
Patti
4:14 pm
Pete, I’m not advocating giving up on the church… To do that would mean giving up on the people, our own brothers and sisters in Christ… BUT we have to face the facts, we can’t hide our flaws and the flaws of our system anymore. We have to be radically honest with each other and ourselves and stop “playing a part” to the outside world. Spencer is writing to that effect.
Just my two cents!
LOVE YOU PETE! Miss you too! Portland is great and I really feel like this is where God wants me right now. Hope you are well!
@timothykurek
Timothy Kurek´s last blog ..And life goes on-
[Reply]
Timothy Kurek
6:47 pm
Pete.. when I read this earlier today, I hadn’t realized that this was from the Internet Monk.
When I got home, I downloaded the book and started reading it… and I am really enjoying it so far. Not because it challenges church structure but because it calls the reader to re-evaluate their thoughts on who Christ is. To not be so quick to believe we have it all figured out.
Tony York´s last blog ..Getting some Nooky
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Tony York
7:08 pm
The body of Christ is truly wondrous.
[Reply]
truefreodom
7:30 pm
Pete, I often struggle with trying not to lose it over stuff like this.
I am very young in my belief and understanding how to follow Jesus. While in my learning, I find it a constant battle to want to explain myself to folks like this author on why I want to follow Jesus when in reality there is no explaining.
These are simply other peoples opinions and I truly think that not all opinions can be changed.
I do applaud you however for looking at the other side even though it makes you want to scream sometimes. I think learning and understanding is the key to living in a world where we can do right be each other and not rush to judgement. Hopefully that goes both directions.
Joseph´s last blog ..Character- Imprint On The Soul
[Reply]
Joseph
5:52 am
Pete,
Our “moral conservative” approach never used to bother me. I was one. Then I read enough of the Bible to realize how much Jesus disagreed (politely but strongly) with both the liberals AND the conservatives. The liberals, because they didn’t believe much in God, let alone love him. The conservatives, because they claimed to believe in God but didn’t care a bit about loving their neighbors. (And both, because they rejected him.)
When I tried to match my churches’ political positions with the Bible – well – there often wasn’t much match (Please realize, those churches were not in Tennessee).
I think we often take good ideas – even Biblical ones – and don’t apply them as Jesus would. One example: Joseph. Wasn’t it great the way God raised him up to be a leader in Egypt? Of course.
But what if he was alive today, and decided to run for office? Senator – governor – president – you pick. Would we vote for him?
Well – would we vote for ANYONE who:
1. Wasn’t a citizen?
2. Entered the country illegally?
3. Had no government experience at all?
4. Had only held two jobs in his life – disappeared from one without notice, and was fired from the other?
5. Had served a prison term for attempted rape? Was released with no proof he’d been innocent?
6. Proposed to add a new tax consisting of 20% of your total income?
7. And planned to take away all your land and give it to the government?
Would we think “This man’s of God! Let’s vote for him!” Yet he WAS.
Somewhere in there, i THINK we’d have applied our own standards. We’d have decided Joseph was NOT godly – in fact, was probably pretty close to the Antichrist.
And we would have missed out on the blessings and prosperity, God would have given us through his service.
Do we ever do that today? Do we ever just following our party (whichever one) instead of checking the facts? Or looking below the surface? Hearing both sides? Or loving instead of hating? Naah, of course not!
[Reply]
Pete Ahlstrom
10:42 am
I endorsed Michael’s book. And I’m really happy to see that people are debating the topics in this book with passion.
But I’m confused, because the book that I read didn’t suggest giving up on “the Church,” it simply suggested we’ve taken “the Church”–i.e., God’s people–and turned the whole concept into something that Jesus never intended. While Michael certainly criticized some of “ways” people do church or manufacture church, he certainly doesn’t suggest that we give up on God’s people.
[Reply]
mpt
11:23 am
I have walked away from institutionalized religion. I do NOT regularly attend any one church. I have been a member at various churches throughout my life. I have worked in ministry areas. I have been on praise teams. But I was miserable, I was lonely, and at times I was no closer to God than I am to the actual sun. I never understood why, I didn’t see how I could be doing everything right and still be so miserable. Absolutely miserable. I started reading some books, and asking some questions about what I truly believe. I am finding that many of today’s brick and mortar churches, are not lining up spiritually with God’s Word. I know the bible says we are not to forsake the assembling our ourselves with other believers…but no matter where I am, if I am with other believers…I am ASSEMBLED. I am NOT saying that all churches and all Christians are evil…I even attend several churches from time to time as a visitor. I believe there are many churches who are finally getting the idea of what “church” should look like… So far..I am no where close to finding it. For me, FOR NOW…I feel compelled to stay AWAY from organized religion as it has always stood and stands now. I believe I am doing what God wants from ME. Since I have left the building, I feel God is continually showing Himself to me in ways I never imagined were possible. I feel closer to Him, because I AM closer to Him. I am more into the Word, more into studying. I am finding it easier to share what I believe these days, and I do when the opportunity presents itself. Christians who walk away from brick and mortar church aren’t the bad guys… we may just be looking to walk the path different from how mainstream Christians do.
[Reply]
Julie R.
11:58 am
I found a lot of what Spencer said right on but like you, sometimes unsettling. I also wonder is some of his comments aren’t generated from his own personal frustrations instead of objective observation. That being said, I learned a lot from the book
[Reply]
Steve Hopkins
12:07 pm
Pete:
I have appreciated MIke’s Internet Monk blog for some time. I just ordered his book and look forward to reading it !
Dave
[Reply]
Dave
5:36 pm
I’ve had this book on my Amazon wish list for a while and now I want to read it more! I’ll be interested to see what you have to say when you finish it.
Chris
[Reply]
Chris Loach
7:35 pm
The world hurt me and Christ healed me. Jesus came to heal the broken hearted and He does. If I view myself as superior to those hurting people around me who need the same thing I received from Jesus – then I view myself as better than other. Therefore, I have made His healing about me and not about what He has done. I am sad to say at times I see and thing in this manner. I want His glory and he tells me to give it to Him, because he knows it will destroy me. This is a painful way for me to live and pain leads my back to Him. Superiority, thoughts of being better than – reap isolation and separation. Sadly the Church (the followers of Jesus) has experienced this. The only way the Church will change is through each individual believer having an intimate, continually growing relationship with Jesus. The words of the author are heart breaking and point to the need for more of Jesus in all our lives. I can point out the faults of those who rail against the church or point out the short comings of fellow believers or I can ask God to give me the grace to love them all where they are and point them to the only answer Jesus. I hope I chose the later.
[Reply]
Turner Talley
11:02 am
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