So we’re in this Q series which has been rocking my world. This past Sunday we tried to tackle the question of “Why Is There Suffering In This World?” You can listen or watch that one HERE.
This week is proving to be tougher than I thought. The main question is “Does Prayer Really Change Anything?” I spent the better half of my day yesterday in a intense, but healthy discussion with several staff members about this topic. Clearly we did not agree. 
So I want to know what you think.
Why do you pray?
Do you think prayer really changes anything or does it mainly change us?
If God has already made up his mind should I even bother?
And before you jump in I want you to read the original question left on THIS POST which spurred this topic on to become week 3 of the Q series. Imagine sitting across from this family before you throw out your cliche religious phrases.
Yesterday morning, my cousin’s four-year-old son died from a brain tumor. He was diagnosed just 55 days ago, went into a coma ten days ago, and passed away yesterday. The family was on their last day of a Make A Wish trip to Disney World when Josiah slipped into a coma. This family’s life has turned upside down in less than two months.
The most obvious question is what is God’s purpose in this…in allowing a little child like that to die from such a detestable disease? But, more than that, why does God’s timing and answers to prayer sometimes seem so random? Thousands of people were praying for little Josiah, and thousands more have prayed for other kids with tumors, cancer, etc…some get healed, some not.
Is it a prayer contest? Does it come down to who prays more passionately? And if not, how does prayer factor in at all…is God going to allow what He’s going to allow and there’s not much we can do about it? I know that God answers prayers. I believe that. But sometimes there doesn’t seem to be much rhyme or reason to it.
I wish I were more well versed in my memory of Scripture. There is one example in the OT I believe where someone asked God something and He did indeed change His mind.
But…
Whether or not prayer changes God’s mind, I know that God created us for relationship. I think that we are to be in as deep as we can get with our God and that means sharing our deepest thoughts and desires with Him. I think that He does answer some and not others however I don’t think it is based on righteousness, though if it were that would be nice because we could have SOME control. I think it is based on the situations that will bring HIM the glory HE deserves. I think that He knows when we are in so deep that the prayer isn’t about us, when we are willing to pray that His will be done and MEAN IT…and we give Him control, completely, that it is more likely to be answered in the way we want. Not because it is what we want, but because at that point our view and God’s are closer. But that might mean you prayed for a child with a tumor but your prayer was, “Lord, this child is precious to me and I love him more deeply than anything on Earth, but I trust You and place him in YOUR arms to care for.”
In doing that, and meaning it, we are completely sold out and God deserves nothing less than that! Then, when the time comes for healing or death, we know that God is watching out and knows what is best…
I think one of the hardest things to grasp is that God is not traveling through time as we are. We react to the circumstances of life as we approach them because we exist inside of time. God is omnipresent and, therefore, stands outside of time.
What does that mean?
It means that when He was creating the heavens and the earth, He was already hearing the cries of our heart that we pour out in prayer. David said in Psalm 139 that all the days of his life were known to God before one came to be. This is not so much a predetermined life but an “always known” life.
My beliefs are that God acts within His will to the desires and needs of His children. I also believe that prayer is our agreement to God’s will not a shopping cart or mechanism to change God.
If we take the bible at face value and believe the words contained in it, we have to accept that our prayers make a difference.
This will be a rough analogy but I will use it none-the-less. Suppose I made a plate of cookies and placed them on the counter in my kitchen. Now suppose I have a 3 year old child who is has been playing in her room all morning and been unaware of my activities making cookies.
It is my desire to give a cookie to my child and I know that she will want one when she becomes aware that they are on the kitchen counter. Being a good father, I have already determined that I will give her one if she asks because I want her to understand that it is the polite thing to do and that she can come to me for her desires. I also want her to understand that she is dependent upon my good will for the good things in her life.
We are 3 dimensional beings traveling through time trying to understand the will of a being that would exist beyond science’s definition of the 10th dimension (the realm of every possibility within every possible universe)… someone once described that in the same manner of a square on a 2-dimensional plane trying to understand what a cube was as it passed through its plane. The square would only be aware of the slice of the cube that was on its plane because it cannot see beyond its own dimension.
Prayer is a complex subject with an easy solution. Read the Lord’s prayer and see what Christ, God in the form of man, gave us as an example of prayer. Seems to me that we are shown to ask for our daily bread.
I am looking forward to your sermon this Sunday!
Tony York’s last blog post..Jealous in a good way
@Tony York said, “We are 3 dimensional beings traveling through time trying to understand the will of a being that would exist beyond science’s definition of the 10th dimension (the realm of every possibility within every possible universe)… someone once described that in the same manner of a square on a 2-dimensional plane trying to understand what a cube was as it passed through its plane. The square would only be aware of the slice of the cube that was on its plane because it cannot see beyond its own dimension.”
Just wanted you to know that was exactly what I was thinking.
Hi Pete,
I pray because I want to become more like Christ and prayer was absolutely vital to his ministry, his relationship with the Father and the ability to overcome and endure the awful things he had to endure. I pray because when things are at rock bottom, nothing and no one can comfort and miraculously lift the burden as the Holy Spirit does. I pray because I am prayed for. I pray because although I do not understand all about God’s ways and why things happen to some of us and not others, ultimately, He is God and I am not and therefore, there is no other alternative but to trust that He who created the Heavens and the Earth must know what He is doing and why. I pray because in doing so I am reminded that the sufferings of this life will pale into comparison when I go to meet my Father, and when that moment comes, I would like to think that it will be like meeting an old friend who saw me through the highs and the lows and not a total stranger whom I am terrified of. I pray because for me life without prayer no longer makes any sense.
I hope none of that sounded like cliche religious phrases, because it was meant from the heart and from my own experience.
My commiserations goes out to the family of that little boy. May they find peace as they draw near to the Father and as He draws near to them in their pain and sorrow.
Thank you for letting me share.
ransom33
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Like Amber, I wish that I was very well-versed in scripture, but I think that our prayers matter. Does it mean that we can “change God’s mind?” Not necessarily. Ultimately, God is in control of everything whether we like to acknowledge it or not… I think that this is one of those questions that for me, personally, I have to let my faith kick into high gear. I pray because that’s how I communicate with God… I know he hears me. Do I always get everything I want? Not a chance. Do I sometimes? Yes… Maybe those are the times where I am able to see what his will is more clearly and I am on the same page? Who knows. I think that I just talked so much I confused myself…
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I NEED to tell God what is on my heart, my joys, my fears, my ideas, etc. I find comfort and peace when I go to Him with my problems. I always leave His presence knowing I will be okay, regardless of how the sitution turns out. His presence is sometimes is the ONLY place I can find peace. This Father /daughter relationship, where I feel valued, loved and protected, is a necessity. I’ve had many disappointments and still unanswered questions, but I tell you, that in His presence, everything seems like it will be okay…if not here, then “there”. Kinda’ like sitting on my Daddy’s lap as a child. Nothing scared me when His arms were around me.
We have had some major tragedies in my family, including the death of my 16 year old nephew that devastated all of us. I still don’t understand it, but God does bring Peace to frazzeled hearts and minds. I know that full well.
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I look forward to hearing your message, Pete. This is something that I think a lot about. They are big questions that you are tackling and I pray God gives you a spirit of wisdom and revelation… I pray he gives it to me, too. I struggle with predestination v. freewill (and by struggle, I mean I wonder about it…), and this prayer business ties right in. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Ultimately, I just want to understand the heart of God as best as possible while on this earth. If these questions are unanswerable in this life, I’m fine with that… I just hope he tell me that, so I can obsess about something else…
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Always a tough one.
Firstly, I think we can accept that prayer is important. Jesus prayed all the time, and when we look at his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane his words seem to imply a desire to change the circumstances, not just himself.
I believe prayer always changes something. Peter prayed while he was in prison, and God released him. Paul and Silas prayed while in prison, and God gave them peace to sing His praises while still in Prison. Paul prayed for God to deliver him from his “thorn in the flesh” ang God led him to an understanding of His deeper purpose in allowing it. Countelss others prayed for a healing, and received it.
All prayers. All answered. None answered the same way.
I had a friend who passed away recently. We prayed for healing for her a few years ago when she first got sick, and she had a recovery that was nothing short of miraculous. Then she had a relapse. We prayed again, and she did not receive the healing she had hoped for. However the fear and depression she had during the first illness, and the beginning of the second, was soon replaced with an optimism and joy within her circumstances that was also nothing short of miraculaous. Tell me that wasn’t an answered praye.
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Right now, in this season of my life, I pray because the Bible tells me to pray and I really want to be obedient. But as I was listening to my babies pray for their granddad last night, I really struggled with your other two questions. I know prayer changes me. I think I used to have an answer to your last two questions, but I don’t have a good answer right now.
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@Whimzie, It’s a tough one isn’t it. I’m not sure I have a good answer either.
Pete, there is no pat answer to this. I’ve seen people in ministry, who know the scriptures inside and out, who have a jillion theological titles, struggle to the point of silence with this subject.
Tony touched on the only thing that really gives any balance. God sees the entire picture. We’ll never see that this side of heaven.
We have to remember there are things that God allows within His permissive will, where it will seem Satan is having a field day. That is only for a season. Can our prayers change things here? Yes! Will we understand why they don’t always work out the way we hope and pray? No. There is a point in maturity where we have to trust Him in all things and surrender them. Does it make it easy? Not at all.
Sickness, disease and decay are not God’s design but the result of a fallen creation. But, praise God, He has a provided a Saviour. And all the slings and arrows of The Adversary cannot take that away, for it was done in the realm of God’s sovereign will.
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His ways are not our ways. That is a really hard thing to comprehend sometimes. My heart goes out to the writer of that question in your post. I do know that in times of tragedy, when awful things happen… I can’t imagine not having God there. I need to pour out my sadness and heartache to Him and get a measure of His comfort and peace in return. I like the way prayer brings me into closer relationship with Him. This is my desire and is why I pray. I do believe He hears my prayers and yes, I do believe prayer changes things. And I have to believe that God is in all things. I can’t believe He’s only in the midst of life’s circumstances when they turn out the way I want and that He’s not around when they go seemingly horribly wrong. Is He God and in control of the Universe or not? Do I really believe that? My faith has been tested in a particularly difficult circumstance and it is in times of sorrow and anger that I especially need to remind myself that His ways are not my ways.
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I don’t know ….but I pray like I do…and it changes me….when I pray like I do
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I have studied the bible for years and taken many classes but I am not well-versed in it. However, I don’t think God views me as less than worthy because of that. I KNOW, in my heart, like I know the sun will rise tomorrow, that prayer WORKS. I just know it. My father died of cancer and I couldn’t stop that, but I prayed for his suffering to cease and that happened. It was his time to die, even though that’s hard for us to accept. I think we all have a time to be born and a time to die, as the bible says.
When I was 40 I prayed for a miracle, a family of my own. I didn’t have ANY hope of it, but I asked anyway. Within months, I was planning my daughter’s adoption from Russia. For 18 long months I struggled with so many things that went wrong, but through it all, prayer sustained me, and I got her home, finally. My mother had everyone in her church praying, and all her friends in churches all over Augusta praying. We like to say my girl was literally “prayed home!” [BTW, my book about her adoption is now available on Amazon, titled Adopting Alesia.] So prayer WORKS!
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Hey Pete – Great topic. This is actually something that I have been thinking a lot about recently, since my little sister was diagnosed with cancer last week. She and her husband pastor Community of Faith Church in Houston, TX, and since they announced it, thousands of people from around the world have been praying for her. You can follow her journey at http://www.laurashook.com. I agree with several of the previous posters. It’s a very difficult thing to figure out but I believe prayer is more about our relationship with him than anything else. I DO believe that he hears our prayers and that he sometimes supernaturally acts – and sometimes he does not. It’s when he doesn’t act that we Christians can become so confused or discouraged. But like others have said, God is operating outside of time and he sees the bigger picture. We just have to trust that he is God and we are not. I have been ending my prayers for my sister recently with, “but your will be done.” That’s not easy to say, but I believe it is the best way to look at the situation. Thanks again for bringing up such a great topic!
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I’m not sure how I pray…I try and have a constant dialouge though out my day with God…sometimes I should listen more and there are times I feel like my needs and requests are petty compared to the needs of others so I hesitate to ask …which in my mind after thinking about what I just did puts God in a box. I put him in the box because I don’t think he has the time or he has more important things to do than listen to my stuff. Maybe I should let him out of the box more and sit back and let God show off a little bit!! Thats my Scooby Doo thought for the day.
I have thought about this a lot over the past year, especially. I know I pray because without that communication with God, I don’t feel I really have a relationship with Him. Jesus showed us that prayer is important. He prayed, even though He IS God. (An example I also follow – I talk to myself, too. It’s healthy, I think… j/k here, sorry, digressing…)
I think prayer changes US more than it changes God’s mind about something. I think God knows our hurts, joy, requests before we make them. He knows the changes that are going to take place within our hearts as we choose to draw near to Him or shy away. I find that amazing. So amazing.
It really is a mind-boggling topic, and some of you said it best when you said, “His ways are not ours…” We don’t necessarily need to understand, just obey.
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“On Him we have set our hope that He will continue to deliver us, as you help us by your prayers.” (2 Cor 1:10-11)
Apparently God gives us the privilege of helping others through our prayers.
I have some personal things (things that make my life pretty difficult) that I’ve prayed about for at least 17 years. I’m 28. Not answered. At least, not in the way I want to.
So, I have no idea.
The temptation is HUGE to think that’s he’s not good, or not faithful, because He could do those things for me in a second.
He could, but He doesn’t and that’s maddening sometimes.
But as Spurgeon said, “Unerring wisdom ordained your lot, and selected for you the safest and best condition. Remember this, had any other condition been better for you than the one in which you are, divine love would have put you there. You are placed by God in the most suitable circumstances. Be content with such things as you have, since the Lord has ordered all things for your good.”
When I read that quote I wanted to throw my book across the wall. But I believe it… and it now comforts me.
I believe He is good. And faithful. I have deciced that I believe that, and I’ve stopped questioning Him and His ways.
Sometimes my only motivation to pray is because Jesus prayed all the time.
Best book I’ve read about this recently is by Philip Yancey “Prayer: does it make any difference”.
@Steve Dunham, Oh man. Dang. I’m stopping to pray for your sister right now.
I understand that building a relationship with God can be the point of prayer. But that isn’t what I see people doing. I see them asking for specific things believing God will change his predetermined path due to their faith. They pray for healing, for a new job, for their car to start…. It feels arrogant to me. I hope your sermon address prayer as a relationship builder and prayer as a personal wish list.
I love Tony York’s answer. Such a perfect illustration about how we could never “get” most anything about God.
I understand prayer the way Momma Mango/Susan described it, changing us more than changing Him. I really believe that something about praying and communing with God gives us, even if it’s brief, the ability to understand the situation from His perspective and with His heart.
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@Jenn, I won’t spend much time on that aspect of prayer (even though its’ very important) because that wasn’t the question selected.
I do agree with you that we often reduce God down to a genie in a bottle. However, doesn’t scripture invite us to ask and pray the desires of our heart?
Didn’t Jesus pray for ‘another way’ and yet submit to His Father’s will?
Just trying to look at all angles.
What comes to mind for me is…
1) Esther and the people prayed
2) David certainly prayed
3) Jesus prayed. If prayer didn’t matter, He wouldn’t have done it, since He wasn’t a time waster. But He did pray, fervently and earnestly in the desert, in the garden, and even on the cross. He was a man of purpose, such a purpose!
4) The Holy Spirit intercedes for us. I’ve always thought of that as prayer.
Hebrews 4:16 (Amplified Bible)
16: Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God’s unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it]. –I always believed this referred to prayer.
I am changed when I pray. My perspective changes [eventually] to seeing how off center I am in my thoughts, in my heart. It’s also my acceptance of His invitation to time with Him. It’s worship if my perspective is given more to Him rather than myself.
I know prayer changes things. I prayed all night before my cousin and her husband were scheduled for aborting their baby at Planned Parenthood. When they arrived for their appointment, they were crying. The lady said, “I can see you’re not ready for this. Why don’t you go home and thing about it.” Wow. I would have thought they’d be offered ‘counseling’ to ‘help’ them through the procedure. No, they went home and never came back. The name of their child means, God is my Judge. I just wonder if my prayer moved God to convict their hearts in what they were about to do and they were moved to tears, or maybe God put it in that woman’s heart tell them to go home and give it more thought. I don’t know now, but one day it will be revealed. That’s when I’ll see if my prayers mattered or not. Until then, I won’t even take a chance that they don’t.
Doesn’t the Holy Spirit make intercession for us? If prayer didn’t matter, if it doesn’t move the heart of God and the circumstances of life are not affected, then I don’t think Jesus and the Holy Spirit would have/do pray.
Wasn’t there a king about to die and prayed to God for 10 more years? And he was granted it? Maybe didn’t turn out so good for him, but I think we see that story for a reason. Was his prayer attitude right, I don’t know. But it’s there in God’s word.
Didn’t God hear Hannah’s prayer? Wasn’t she told that also?
Does prayer change me? Oh yeah. (Thank the LORD, too!)
Does it change circumstances/work? Well, if it doesn’t, then I’d feel cheated, because I’ve seen in the Word people praying and things happening. I think God responds to prayer when we touch His heart and He, in His wisdom, sees fit to move. I know He responds to our prayers. Otherwise, He’d be ignoring us. He’s wise, but sometimes we ask for the right things and with a right heart, I think we can move His heart.
I don’t want to be the kind of person that prays to bug Him until He changes His mind (like the old lady and the judge, don’t know the scripture reference), but I pray because I want to have time with Christ, because I believe He wants to hear my heart, hear me acknowledge things of my heart to Him. Because HE wants to speak TO ME.
I don’t want to be in a marriage that my beloved knows me so well that we don’t even communicate, we just work well together and move through life fluidly. Our relationship thrives with communication. I wouldn’t feel loved if my husband didn’t talk to me or listen. I was made to love God, to honor Him. To model Jesus as best I can. And He prayed. So I will pray, believing that it makes a difference in my relationship with Him, and that God does intervene.
After all that, I suddenly feel so loved by God. Thanks for the great questions.
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I apologize I went on for so long. I think I spoke more to myself than anyone else, LOL.
Thanks for the opportunity to share.
Tina Dee’s last blog post..Meet Cheryl St.John – Historical Romance Author
Yes! Prayer changes things. Absolutely… 100%! Why does God say “pray without ceasing” if it was purpose-less and useless? “The Prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”
@TonyYork is so right talking about our concept of time and God’s timing. More than likely, prayer changes ME! Sometimes prayer heals, sometimes prayer changes circumstances, sometimes it encourages. But God hears us. And He speaks to us through prayer.
We have to trust Him, that His ways are higher than our ways.. but they are good! His plans are to prosper and not harm us. In this world we will have pain.. but fear not, for He has overcome the world.
I think sometimes we think that prayer is only about changing circumstances. But why do we pray in the first place? To give God the significance due Him. To worship Him. To recognize and thank Him for all the things He has done in our lives!
Gosh so much to say about prayer. I think my favorite prayer to look at is Jesus’ prayer in John 17.
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Andy Stanley has a great series about prayer called “Permission to Speak Freely.” He talks about how the Lord’s Prayer is the model prayer. In it, Christ glorifies God first, (“hallowed be thy name”), then he asks for God’s will to be done. It’s not until the third part of the prayer that Christ offers a prayer request (“Give us this day…”). So I think our priorities in prayer get messed up sometimes. Andy says we view God as almost a spiritual ATM machine–stick a prayer in and a blessing comes out. Now that’s messed up.
I get that when it comes to the silly everyday prayers that so often fill our minds–help me beat traffic, make it stop raining, help me pass the test, etc. But I don’t get it in tragic situation–like Josiah–though the truth still holds firm.
Though I don’t understand why prayers go unanswered in the middle of horrible situations, I have to trust that prayer is more about bringing us closer to God and less about asking him for stuff, even the stuff that matters most to us. Maybe, sometimes, instead of making a list of prayer requests we should simply make a list of reasons why we love God and why God is who He is. Keep the focus on Him.
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You know honestly reading this, it brings to mind the book ” Boundaries” that GOD has His own…and I think it would work relating to HOW and WHEN He answers our prayers, and the WAY He answers them.
I have to say praying using the Word makes a HUGE difference in our attitude when we pray; Seriously though, why do we put that burden of ” HOW MUCH” we pray, why concentrate on it at all? We are NOT in control, and wouldn’t it be just a tadbit prideful to try to ” get” God to answer our prayer in the ways we want Him too? Wouldn’t it be easier to just let Him do His thing?
Jeremiah 29:11 is not just words, they are PROMISES from God, and He already KNOWS what will happen in our lives. And sometimes He answers our prayers…and we don’t even see it, because we are too busy concentrating on somethingelse He should help us with.
When it comes to illness, and dying people though; of course we want more than anything for God to heal them, because WE love them, but I think we have to see that God loves them too, and we all have a plan on this earth for how long we’ll be here…Maybe instead of asking God to change things for us, maybe we should be praying HOW to help us accept and understand the changes in our lives, and ask Him to interceed supernaturally of course, but to make sure we have HIM know that we are NOT in control and that we trust Him to handle the situation, however He sees fit.
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I watched a dear friend hold their 11 month old and sing Jesus loves me to her as she died. Earlier that day we prayed that God would do something in that situation. I have seen people who were on deaths door and we prayed and for whatever reason God brought them back to full health. I wish I had an answer for you but after experiencing these things in life, I have no answsers. I know that God is good and that I pray. I know that I have prayed for five months for my house to sell and it has not but I still pray. There is hope in prayer, there is change in prayer, and there are things I do not understand but I pray. Just think Jesus prayers in John 17 are still unanswered. Prayer is a mystery that I embrace.
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@Pete…
The bible says Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.
I think that points us in the direction of desiring what God wants so that when we ask for our desires they are inline with His will.
Christ said this about asking for the desires of our heart:
“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
Appears that there is some conditionality to our supplication.
I think these verses are important when discussing praying:
“Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
How about those verses that talk about the Spirit groaning on our behalf when we don’t even know how to pray in a situation… those are some good ones too.
*************
Ok.. now for some fun news. My family was blessed recently. You can read about it here: http://30secondrule.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/and-sometimes-there-are-blessings-part-2/
The gist is this. A very nice lady who works with Reba was able to get us two tickets in the ADA section. This means we have 2 additional tickets availabe for Thursday Night’s performance at LP field. Some of the acts that are going to be there are. Reba, Brooks & Dunn, Brad Paisley, Rascal Flatts.. among others.
Pete, I need your help to find two people that would love to be at that show. The good thing is that the tickets will be free, the bad thing is that they will have to sit beside me and my youngest daughter (she is 11).
Help me out Pete… I don’t want these tickets to go to waste… and I don’t know anybody from Nashville!
Tony York’s last blog post..Jealous in a good way
Pete, as always, I so appreciate your tackling difficult spiritual questions. This is one I’ve wrestled with a lot, and still I’m still working on it.
Here’s my most complete blog post on the subject, a bit long-winded, but then so am I: http://pastorbecca.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/what-prayer-can-and-cant-do/
My prayers (which will accomplish something!) that you receive and deliver a powerful Word,
Becca
Do we have to ask for God’s will to be done fir it to actually happen? I get that we are supposed to pray, that Jesus did it and it’s commanded in the Bible. But it’s like someone said- do we believe God is in control or not? And if He is, then He will accomplish His purposes no matter what. Maybe we will miss out on sharing all the blessings that we could have experienced through prayer, but I have to believe that God is going to do what God is going to do no matter what.
I used to really believe my prayers mattered…as my life keeps falling apart it’s harder to believe that, but I’m trying.
Why do I pray? I pray because I know that prayer works. I have two children that the Dr. said that I could never have. I think that that many people do not understand that God always answers prayers because they may not have gotten the answer that they want. God answers Yes, No, and In my time, not yours. I try to pray for God’s will in the circumstances, no matter what my desire is. No, sometimes I don’t like the answer, but what child does? He is my Father and, unlike some earthly ones, He always knows best.
Prayer changes everything, especially us. It is our way of communicating with our brother and Father. He teaches us and shows us the way. Sometimes we need to be still and listen. Besides, isn’t it great to know that whether He is correcting us or loving on us, that the Creator of the Universe is on our side! Talk about an attitude adjustment!
I am answering the last question with a question. In Genensis 18, did God not change His mind about how many righteous people Abraham had to find in Sodom before He destroyed it only because Abraham asked?
I have friends whose child died after living only a few short hours. People were saved at that child’s funeral, and other people were saved because of how the family handled the situation. We cannot possibly know the mind of God or the outcome of a situation. We should always ask. It all comes down to Matt. 7:7-11.
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This is what I think…but I’ve never been to seminary.
I don’t know if it changes God’s mind or not…and I kind of think it doesn’t b/c He already knows how things are going to turn out. I do think it 1) allows for relationship with God and 2) helps us to accept whatever happens if we have prayed “according to your will.”
I used to struggle with why there were prayer chains and blogs for tons of people to pray…b/c scripture doesn’t say…”where a really, really, big group is gathered.” It says “where two or more or gathered.” And I know he hears the prayers of me individually as well. The conclusion I finally drew was this: The more people who are praying means more people who are going to be allowed to watch God work…or answer…however it may be…yes, no, not now.
My heart is broken for the family of the little boy who died. Broken. Hopefully their acceptance of God’s answer…which is obviously heartbreaking…and their response to it…will point others to Christ.
Because when your world is rocked and you can still “praise Him in the storm” then I think that’s when you know that you know that you know.
Now I wonder what they say in seminary.
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I go through hot and cold season of prayer in my life, and I’d really like to give a very reasoned and poetic answer about why I pray because and say it’s because I want to be a conduit to the will of the living God and a tool for his glory on earth. But in all honesty that would be a bold faced lie and a load of psudo-spirtual crap, I pray because I’m scared, I’m scared of my finances tanking, I’m scared the blood of Jesus isn’t enough to cover my sin, I’m scared my sick wife will never get better and she’ll suffer forever, I’m scared of tornado’s, terrorists, heart disease, the devil, politicians, large corporations, gravity and nuclear war, skin cancer, male patterned baldness and rising gas prices. I pray because I’m scared God is aware of how disobedient and self centered I am. I pray because I want God’s job, but not his responsibility and definitely not his justice. I pray because I’m a broken idiot in a broken world. And I pray because when things go wrong and I go to people in my life looking for answers their first question will be “well have you been praying” and I feel obligated to say yes. I pray because I really need saving. Prayer does change things, but it proves true in both the scripture and in practice that anytime God institutes real change it happens in us first and it’s only with persistent dedicated and selfless prayer that it sticks. And as for the last question, that’s the one I really don’t have an answer for, I’d like to say yes to keep the door for hope open, but at the same time I’d like to say no to clear my conscience for not praying like I should and with the heart I should. I think the real struggle of a prayer life is trying to escape the mindset of God being the kid on the anthill with the magnifying glass and instead see him as the anthill itself.
Why pray? Because we are admonished to.
Free will? Yes.
Does prayer change outcome? Yes and no.
I believe that God has given us free will in our choices. I believe that God already knows what the choices are that we are going to make. I believe that He already knows the outcome of the various scenarios in our lives. I believe that He wants us to see how in control He is by praying specifically. When we do this, we see specific outcomes. These outcomes are all too often shrugged off as coincidental, when we have not trained our eyes to see the cause and effect of prayer. This allows us to glorify Him for those outcomes because it is an act of faith when we pray. That faith is in trusting to see His will and His provision, through His plan…even when the outcome is not what we would choose, in our own imperfect, selfish lives.
I do not wish to sound judgmental or trite when I use the word ‘selfish’. I use it here more to define our limited scope of vision about how He can use even tragic circumstances for good, for those that know Him (Romans 8:28). These things test us and challenge us to become even stronger through Him, not due to our own ability.
If someone skeptically says to me, “What would you know? Have you ever lost a child to death or a marriage facing dissolution or had long-term disability that was not healed?” That is my opportunity to share how He has been faithful, shown through prayer, when tragedy HAS struck me down in those areas…healed in ways far beyond what I had asked for, but differently than what I had wanted.
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@Lett, “I pray because I’m a broken idiot in a broken world.” That’s gold bro.
Hi Pete,
Obviously, God is the authority and final determiner of how all prayers are answered. God’s sovereign will is congruous with his overarching plan and purpose for eternity, and how He answers our prayers will always be in line with the “big picture”. Your question makes me think of a Chris Rice song which goes, “If I had a magic wand…” People tend to blame God for all the bad things that are going on in the world ["Why won't He FIX it?"] but the facts are, (a) Our sin caused it; and (b) He gave us dominion over the Earth, a responsibility that we have not upheld in mercy, justice and humility as he would have us to do [Micah 6:8]. Another important concept to understand in tackling this question is the fact that God uses hardship to shape and refine His people. Broken vessels are capable of communicating His goodness, righteousness, and love because they have firsthand experience of His healing, hope, provision, comfort, and redemption in the face of disappointment, rejection, grief, failure and loss. Our calling is to embrace His sovereignty, our responsibility (which includes praying according to scriptural guidleines), and the hardship [training] necessary to break and reshape our spirits into His likeness. This includes acceptance of trials without rebellion or impatience, trusting Him and praying that His will is done, knowing it may not be what we would wish for, but it will definitely be what is best from His perspective. Only then are we able to become the “royal priesthood” that He intends for us to be, anointed to glorify Him in a broken world. Isn’t that the ultimate blessing? To reach a place where no matter what happens, we know we have prayed, God’s hand is in it, and it will result in exactly what He intends to produce in us and in others, for His glory. And I’m not there yet! But He is faithful.
I’ve heard conflicting studies on prayers effect in medicine (recovering from surgery, etc). So I really don’t know what to think. I’m just flying by the seat of my pants with this, but don’t we all?
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over 12 years ago, my husband died from lung cancer. For a long time, I had very, very deep wounds from one of his sisters blaming me because I didn’t pray enough. How much is enough? She even nicknamed me “Death Angel”. (She had some issues). As a matter of fact, my husband’s last days were some of the most spiritual things I have ever witnessed in my life. God did some miraculous things. God says he inhabits the praises of his people, he also says that in His presence there is fullness of Joy and that His Joy is our strength. So, I believe prayer changes things!
I pray so that I know I’m not alone. I pray because God wants me to.
As a mom, I take my 5 year old to the store and we pick up some things. When she talks about it afterwards, I know what happened because I was there with her, but I still want to listen to her tell me about it. I still want to hear what she remembers and what her favorite parts were. And if something happened that scared her or surprised her, I still want to hear about it. It’s almost like it re-activates the emotions in me for her.
And just because God knows what happens before, during and after it happens, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t tell him about it. I believe God wants us to climb up in his lap and talk about everything we did that day. And everything we have to do tomorrow. Because God knows, but he still wants to listen to us tell Him about it.
I know my prayer changes me. I have no idea if my prayer changes anything else. I know that when I pray, I feel closer to God. I can’t even begin to understand what happens outside of myself when I pray. I don’t know if my prayers for my husband, my kids, my parents change anything in their lives, or just create more awareness in me of the Holy Spirit’s prompting of how to love them. I believe I have felt the effects of prayer; I don’t know if I felt the “prayed for” effects, but I have felt the Lord’s presence in my life, I believe, as a result of someone else praying for me.
As far as trying to change God’s mind with prayer goes, I am not sure. But whether you believe it’s possible or impossible to change God’s mind with prayer, you should still continue to pray. God wants to hear from us because He loves us.
My grandmother is developing Alzheimer’s, but I still love to visit her. I love to sit with her and talk to her, even if we talk about the same things over and over. She is a beautiful woman and has taught me many things, and I love to visit with her because it makes her happy. Sitting with her and talking is about more than just listening to what she has to say, it’s about being present with her. Watching her facial expressions, her gestures, feeling her rest her hand on my arm – there is so much more to it that listening with my ears. I love to listen to Gramma because I love her, but I visit her just as much for my sake as I do for her.
I feel like God gets just as much enjoyment out of listening to our prayers as we get out of praying. It makes him happy to watch our facial expressions, our gestures and to see us touch each other’s lives with love. So even if you believe you can or believe you cannot change God’s mind, you should continue to pray because being with us makes God happy.
I would have to answer “Yes” to this…
And recently had a discussion with a friend who was saddened that her prayers weren’t answered over her hardships. We ended up in a great discussion on what prayer really is.
For me, it’s simply a communication with God about my hopes, fears, dreams, desires, concerns, wants, needs, and other general expressions. That’s all. Perhaps it’s more for others, but that’s my simple definition.
The outcomes are a different story. Does prayer mean God gives me whatever I ask for? Certainly not. But prayer provides peace by knowing God is present in the situation. Does it eliminate the pain and hardship? Certainly not. But it provides an opportunity for my heart, mind and soul to stop – take a moment – and hear God through in the unique way He speaks to me.
The end result varies – it may be frustration, it may be singing praises… regardless of the outcome, it simply brings me closer to God with a deeper understanding of how He works in our lives and in this world.
This next week will be a week of heavy prayer in our family as Sam’s dad goes in to have a cancerous tumor removed – upon which we’ll find out if it has spread. I’ve prayed for these scenarios so often, it’s about as common as praying for those having a tough day or job struggles these days. But now, those prayers are turned inward to our own family.
Through prayer, already I have calm and hope that Sam can receive the same comfort, knowing that God is in this scenario and with our family….
I think if I pray for something and it is in the best interest of me, those around me and His kingdom, then he will probably say yes to that prayer… but only He knows what’s best for the kingdom. The key for me is trusting that He is doing what is best, whether it’s what I want or not. More than any other prayer, I pray that my will aligns with His… that He allows me to have trust and peace in His decisions… that I can accept what I don’t understand.
I tell Him what I want, but I try to approach it with a servant’s heart so that I can end up wanting what He needs. I pray more because I need HIM, not because of MY needs.
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I love what Agnes Sanford said about prayer in “The Healing Light.” (She was able to heal by laying on of hands.) She says you can’t be afraid that God isn’t out there for you or that the healing won’t come. If you turn on an electric light and it fails to shine, you don’t say “there’s no electricity!” You say, “there is something wrong with my lamp.” So if you pray and you don’t get the result you want, then don’t lose your faith–instead change your method of prayer and see if you can make yourself a better vessel for God’s power to flow through. Make adjustments and see if your prayers become more effective!
She basically says that most of us don’t know how to pray effectively for healing, but that if we practice, we can learn to channel the spiritual power that God makes available to us in order to help heal. She describes several simple steps toward effective prayer and advises people to make the experiment and hone their skills, just as you would practice a musical instrument in order to become good at playing it.
Here are the basic steps she outlines:
1. Contact God. As in “be still and know that I am God.” Leave your worries and cares aside and quiet your mind.
2. Your first prayer after quieting your mind should be something like this: “Heavenly Father, please increase in me at this time your life-giving power.”
3. Believe that this power is coming into use and accept it by faith. “No matter how much we ask for something it becomes ours only as we accept it and give thanks for it.” So thank God that his spirit is flowing through you and increasing in you (and in the person you are praying for).
4. Observe the effects so that you know whether you are getting any better at praying effectively. You can’t cure yourself of cancer if you haven’t practiced enough to cure a common cold!
So anyway, after I read Sanford’s book the first time, I decided to try a healing experiment of my own. My husband had a cyst on his wrist that had come and gone for many years and was bothering him again. So I put my hands on this cyst and followed the steps outlined above. We sat praying about it for maybe 20 minutes. Nothing looked any different after the 20 min., so I figured I’d try again another time, and we turned in for the night.
The next morning when we woke up, the cyst was gone. And it’s never come back in over 15 years.
I am so glad that you are tackling this tough, tough topic. More pastors should and in so doing would minister to so many truly hurting people. I think it’s disingenuous to glaze over these hard questions and only focus on how much blessing there is in following Jesus (prosperity theology much?).
I wrote about “unanswered” prayer on my prayer website last summer (http://prayerhouse.net/blog/?p=10) and how it plays into our understanding of prayer’s purpose/ability to change things.
@tony york: your reference to the analogy about living in a 2D square and 3D cube reminded me of the book “Flatland.” Is that what you’re referencing?
Megan’s last blog post..Grieving the loss of the "Perfect Child"
I 100 % believe that prayer can change things. It may not be the change you want.
When my husband was ill, before he died, I did a lot of praying. Still within 10 days he passed away. But for the next year and a half God was the only thing getting me throught my days. Every morning before I got out of bed I would pray that God would get me thought the days because I knew I couldn’t do it. The times that I really didn’t want to be here anymore, He was the one who made me stick it out. One day I was going to the funneral of the husband of a girl I worked with. I was crying and praying all the way there. I just could not do this so soon after my husband had died. When I pulled into the parking lot of the funneral home it felt like someone had put their arms around me and a peace came over my heart. There is no doubt that God was with me to get me thought that service.
As a Christian I feel my job is to keep a open dialogue with God and trust his answers, even when they are not what we want.
I believe prayer is about growth. Mine. I believe that my answer today is different than is was 20 years ago. Not better or worse. And that it will be different a few years from now if I am still on this earth.
I pray for selfish reasons much of the time if am honest with myself. I did not want to lose my 1st child. I want to be close to my sisters & brother whom I have not seen in oh, so many years. I want to be free from chronic illness. I want to be free from crippling debt. I want to be able to put food on the table for my kids on on a consistent basis. But then I realize that all these needs keep me dependent on God. Which may just be where He wants me to be. Do I like it? No. Do I tell Him that? Absolutely. But the passage that brings it home too me over & over (& OVER) is 2 Cor. 12:9-10. “But He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”
So do I believe prayer changes things? Absolutely. We are told to ask, seek, knock. Abraham boldly (in my estimation) interceded to try to save the people of Sodom, though it was not to be.
I guess what I am trying to get at is this: We cannot know the mind & purposes of God. So if we do not make the repeated attempt to plead our case with Him, how do we know what will make the difference in our everyday life? Is it really worth the life of a loved ones to say, “I cannot change what God is going to do, so I won’t try,” to not plead your case with Him & then see what He will do to bring glory to His Name?
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Yes, prayer changes me! In John 14:27 it says, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth , give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled , neither let it be afraid.
I pray so that I see God’s peace…which looks so different from the ‘brand’ that our pop culture sells of peace! That is what I desire to see in my home, in my world.
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@Megan..
That title sounds familiar but its ringing no bells. Do you know the author or if it was a fictional or theology book?
Tony York’s last blog post..Jealous in a good way
Wow, what a painful letter to consider!
I’m just going to challenge you on your question….does prayer change things or does it just change us? I feel that JUST changing “us” is HUGE and powerful and full of hope for the whole world. Prayer has changed me into being more compassionate, more giving and more hospitable Prayer has made me an easier person to live with and just to be around in general. Prayer has freed me from some strongholds.
I prayed that God would heal Shawn’s heart so that a surgeon wouldn’t have to cut him open. That didn’t happen. Prayer didn’t keep my aunt Brenda alive. Those things may seem random and maybe they are….but if we believe that God could choose to be random in our situation and we go to it with faith, we are exercising our faith and building our character in Christ at the same time. We just have to believe that God loves us no matter what His answer is, and that we’ll all be whole in Heaven.
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Well Pete, I don’t really have answers for your questions. I’m still in the questioning of god season of my journey. I read emails like the one you posted and its those kind of emails that make me question god even more. Things like that break my heart. I, however, have a soft spot for kids and for one to die, be abused, and etc. breaks me.
Prayer definitely changes things. In each of the 3 Old Testament examples where God “changed His mind,” the situation was first changed because there was someone who had begun to seek God’s face in the matter.
At times I’ve viewed prayer as a “means to an end” of getting God to cooperate with my agenda and I reduced Him to being my personal assistant. I want to pray because God is a friend that I can talk to about anything and, in addition, because He’s the only one that can do anything about it. I’m as guilty as anyone of measuring my prayer life by how many prayers are answered, when it really should be measured by the strength of the relationship. I love the strength of the relationship expressed in Daniel 3:17-18 where they basically said “We believe God can & will save us from the fire because He loves us, but even if He doesn’t we still believe because we love Him.”
@Lorelei King, hard to believe someone would be so inconsiderate and theologically off base. So sorry to hear that.
Has anyone taken Tony up on his concert offer. What a deal!
Can’t wait to hear this message…This is one of the most difficult topics to tackle. It is like trying to make the infinite finite with minds that can only begin to glimpse the fullness of the reality of God. I have prayed in faith and literally seen someone the doctors have declared moments from death restored to life – and then have prayed with equal or greater faith and watched precious ones breathe their last breath on earth. Yet in the midst of these darkest of times, I saw the Lord continue to “hallow His name” in the hearts of the grieving, saw him comfort those who mourn, and grant a peace that surpasses all understanding. I have a dear friend whose faith filled husband (and father of their two children) took his life a couple of years ago. I can tell you without question that prayer has CHANGED her, prayer has SUSTAINED her, the prayers of many COMFORT her daily…does it change the reality of the horrifying death and loss – NO, but it does CHANGE the reality of her daily living and it empowers her to put one foot in front of the other. At the end of the day, prayer may not change the OUTCOME we can see and quantify (death still happens, poverty ravages, illness overtakes), but I believe with all my being prayer TRANSFORMS us from the inside out whether the outcome changes or not. Tough stuff!! May God give you an increased spirit of wisdom and revelation as you grapple with this topic. We are all desperate to have faith abound in this area – as I believe a contemplative life of prayer infuses HOPE to persevere with eternal vision.
Wow, this is a hard one, but I believe it isn’t just the prayer, it is our faith in Him, If we can have the faith of tiny little mustard seed we can move mountains…that’s a biggie……It comes down to this, I don’t know why God allows these things to happen….I know I need to be coming from a certain direction and in that flow I need to have a heart for Him not the prayer itself, I need to believe even though His will says differently in accordance with the outcome….It isn’t about me or the person..it is Him
Wow it’s still a toughie…
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@Tony York: Flatland is by Edwin Abbott. I think it’s a satirical piece about victorian culture. I read it twelve years ago in college calculus, and I remember thinking it had spiritual implications.
Megan’s last blog post..Grieving the loss of the "Perfect Child"
This is a question I struggle with. Often I remind myself that God knows best and answers prayers in His way, a way that I am far too mortal to understand. But what’s been gripping me recently is that Jesus performed miracles on earth, when people asked, he healed. Why can’t it be that simple? Why do people have to suffer? Why do children have to suffer at the hands of evil? And how can God listen to my quibbling prayers about finding a Godly husband when he’s dealing with children who are beaten, abused, sick, malnourished, abandoned, etc.?
I’m a fairly new Christian and these questions are hard. One thing I find undeniable though is that the practice of prayer, with the discipline and contemplation, is good.
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Erwin McManus addresses this beautifully in this sermon:http://mosaic.org/podcast/ – Jesus Power Over Disease
i guess my question would be, or maybe its just a thought…but mostly confusion…
God already knows our future. He knows the number of our days. He has seen the last moment, knows the beginning, middle and the end. but still…we must live the in between, right? so He would already know when we do, and when we dont pray and how that all will pan out, right? i guess my q is…Has He already determined the “answer” based on His foreknowledge?
OWIE – my brain hurts.
not sure if what i said makes sense. sorry.
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Well, one of my favorite bloggers wrote, what I think, was a wonderful post on this very thing: http://www.mycharmingkids.net/2009/04/why-bother-praying.html. It might come in handy as an extra resource to mention, although you may know this blogger already.
Why do you pray?
I feel the Bible commands me to as set forth in the examples of Jesus and others. It’s a way to communicate with God.
Do you think prayer really changes anything or does it mainly change us?
I think it’s both. I’ll continue this answer below.
If God has already made up his mind should I even bother?
We don’t know what God’s answer is going to be. I believe God knows when we will pray adn will answer those prayers at times to reveal Himself in that way. But on the other hand, it does change US. Sometimes in prayer, I don’t get the answer I want, but I feel so close to God. In prayer, He can give me a Word and I’m okay with whatever situation I’m in.
Wow, there’s so much more! I can’t even express it adequately.
Pete — I love how God works this life out. Just when I’m in the place of questioning something God brings another follower of Christ into my path to encourage me or to travel with me.
Prayer? I pray and I do approach the throne of grace with confidence because Heb 4 tells me this. I also accept that He is God and I’m not, because scripture teaches me this. I also am learning to ask and accept, because His ways are greater than my ways.
This week I’m asking God why a 2 year old hand to suffer horrific abuse at the hands of her father. Why Lord? What is the purpose? The answer? I don’t have one. But I’ll keep pondering that question and I’ll keep praying. And I wonder if God hasn’t placed me in this work (with abused children) to keep me on my knees.
I have no answers for you, but I know this, it’s in prayer that I find my source of comfort, hope and joy. It’s in prayer that I find my peace that comes from Him.
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Yep, prayer changes things, but not everything. So much of prayer is unseen, deep, quiet, unnoticed. So much of it’s outcome may go without being revealed until we actually see Him. That’s the hard part.
Life is like looking at the underside of a rug. Ugly, knotted and just doesn’t look right. The other side? Well, sometimes we get glimpses, but we won’t see the full thing til we get there.
My thing about death? It sucks. We weren’t created to die, or be sick, for that matter and there is nothing in this world that makes death feel normal.
Back to prayer. It’s hard, confusing, and honestly, there is no answer what the outcomes will be. They vary, just like each relationship with Christ does. All I know is that the Key to hearing the Spirit in prayer is humility.
The lower I get, the better I hear Him, know Him and am filled by Him. That right there is prayer. What comes of it is His business.
Man, that’s the pill we have to swallow, isn’t it?
He’s God, I’m not, It Works
Pete, Ephesians 1 seems like a good chapter especially in this part,
11-12It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone.
“13-14It’s in Christ that you, once you heard the truth and believed it (this Message of your salvation), found yourselves home free—signed, sealed, and delivered by the Holy Spirit. This signet from God is the first installment on what’s coming, a reminder that we’ll get everything God has planned for us, a praising and glorious life.”
This is what i call a “promise by process” verse. It is FOR US if we PROCESS (pray) through it.
Thanks Pete, CAN I HAVE THE NOTES OF YOUR SERMON WHEN YOU ARE DONE WRITING IT?
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To answer your questions…honestly:
1. I feel obligated…probably driven by fear of NOT praying
2. Doesn’t change anything. He will do what he will’s. Perhaps prayer changes my perception of what the purpose of His will is?
3. Why bother? The answer depends on whose will you’re praying.
Shouldn’t prayer align us with His desires?
Since his desires are to give us more than we could ask or imagine, would that mean that His desires are MORE than my desires?
So if I pray my desires, which are really His desires, then my desires reflect His desires thus setting me up for the unexpected.
Maybe our commitment to prayer is a direct reflection of our current intensity and expectation of faith?
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Q- Why do you pray?
My answer – Prayer is a path to focusing my intention on what needs to be done in my life. Its a conversation with my Self.
Q- Do you think prayer really changes anything or does it mainly change us?
Answer – Prayer prepares me to face what comes my way, its like getting an armour for a battle. I may not win the battle, I might die but that doesnt matter as long as I Did what I must do, said what I must say and have been true to myself.
Q- If God has already made up his mind should I even bother?
Answer – God is beyond mind so there is no making up God’s mind, only making up our minds.
Wow…such a complex issue given the question that you included in the post.
Does prayer changes things? Yes, but I don’t believe all the time. I’m reminded of the scene in Bruce Almighty where Bruce (God) granted everyone’s prayer request and there was chaos.
I prayed for months in 8th grade for God to heal my TMJ problem in my jaw. I believe he did. Its completely healed with no medical help. However, I prayed for YEARS that God would heal my grandma of cancer and she died from it. I prayed much longer & much harder for my Grandma.
I think the closer to God we grow the more we understand that God’s plan is greater than our requests. Even though they are hard to grasp at times. I believe in being persistent like the parable of the widow, but I’ve learned that persistence does not lead to my way.
The toughest parts are answering the questions presented in your post. Tough.
Nick’s last blog post..Its Bigger Than Me
Why do we pray? — We pray because we either love and accept (prayer of thanks) or fear and do not understand (prayer of petition) God’s will.
Does prayer change things or mainly us? — Prayer changes everything and everyone as long as it glorifies God for his infinite wisdom and perfection.
Why should I bother? Simple, because we are commanded by God to do so.
This was one of my questions. I struggle with God knowing everything and whether prayer would change the “future” if He already knows it. Maybe Tony is right and I just will never understand but a few things always come back to me…
Abraham asked God about Sodom multiple times and it did seem He changed his mind. Either that or I feel like He was playing mind games with him.
Satan asked God about testing Job and he even granted a request from him. Although I doubt we’d all want to label that prayer.
Also ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door will be open, give me this day my daily bread, let your will be done…all of these seem to say we’re supposed to ask for stuff and we’ll get it.
So of course the question is what if I DON’T ask for it? That would seem to mean I WOULDN’T get it. So that would mean things would change based on what I ask for.
But then you’re back to the beginning of your circle…does God already know the future or can He just account for the changes?
I have personal experiences where I have seen prayer work. I was prayed for in a healing service and healed of being deaf in one ear. I also have asked for “trivial” desires of my heart and been granted. So in that way I have to say I believe prayer works. But would all of that happened without the prayer?
I hate that I’ve been a Christian for 20+ years and still don’t know these answers. Looking forward to the sermon for sure.
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To answer the other question about why to pray. If nothing else, I have to talk to God to know what He want me to do.
Amy Bennett’s last blog post..Aggravated
when we are told to pray without ceasing…is that cuz it takes the focus off of us? helps with perspective. which in turn…does change us.
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I haven’t read all of the comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating…
I think, before anything, we have to define “prayer”. Prayer is, in my opinion, supposed to be open TWO-WAY communication. A phone call as opposed to an email. A face to face conversation rather than a handwritten letter. When viewed in that light, the questions become a bit easier to think about…
Why do I pray? Because I do not have any answers, but I know the One who does. If I am to hear Him, I must establish communication with Him. I pray to my God for the same reason I call my sister. Because I love Him, and I want to talk with Him.
Does prayer really change anything or does it mainly change us? I think we’re getting our definition of prayer mixed up again here. By definition, (communication with God) prayer isn’t obligated to change anything. However, all that communication with God can ONLY change US. Our desires become His desires, etc.
I believe there is a definitive difference between ‘knowing’ what will happen, and ‘causing’ or allowing something to happen.
In the case of the original question? There is some comfort in knowing that we cannot see the ‘big picture’ and we do not know how God will use this tragedy for His ultimate glory. (Picture Mary and John at the foot of the cross on Friday afternoon and how they must have felt not knowing what was coming on Sunday…)
Like I said, I don’t have the answers. All I do know is that one can never pray too much, and one can never pray enough.
I just know that when we’re tempted to complain about the ‘answer’ or outcome after we have prayed, just remember to ask: “did you want your prayer answered, or did you want God’s will done”?
That is a tough question. The Lord healed me two months ago when I had a stroke at the age of 34. I still have a long way to go, but I see His hand in everything. I also watched my brother healed after our church have a 24 hour prayer vigil when my brother was in a motorcyle accident and in ICU for weeks.
It is hard to understand why our prayers aren’t answered the way we think they should be. That’s when faith comes in and we simply trust God for His decisions.
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I didn’t read through all 72 comments so I apologize if I repeat things. I dealt with a similar circumstance a few years ago and battled with the question of whether my prayers mattered. I spoke to so many people about it and here’s what I got. Prayer is something God uses to change our hearts. Gotta say that didn’t help me much at the time. My friend was hit by a guy who had a suspended license from a DUI and basically broke his head and several organs. I started a facebook prayer group, set up multiple prayer sittings on campus, and stayed awake for basically 3 days straight. He still died. He had a bright future, he was a strong Christian, he did missionary work. He was going to further the kingdom so why did he die? His mom thought she did something wrong and that’s why God took him. His story ended up being picked up by ESPN because he was the UNC mascot and also an organ donor. Organ donation sign up sky rocketed after the espn special aired. God didn’t answer our prayer, but He did answer millions of others who both received Jason’s organs and will receive organs of people who signed up due to Jason’s story. (If anyone missed it the ESPN site is http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=rayofhope ).
So I guess I went off on a tangent and didn’t really answer the question, but basically I pray because I hope my prayer will be answered and if it’s not I hope God allows me to cope with it. “I can do anything through Christ who strengthens me.” Just gotta keep believing that through everything.
Simply put, prayer changes me. In acknowledging Christ, who He is, and how powerless I am, through the act of prayer I open my heart to expanding his presence in my life.
I don’t have a theological answer, but yes I think it does change things although the thing that changes might be our hearts. I have one friend who had stage 4 melanoma and told she had a few months and then it was just gone. 15 years later she’s still healthy. on the other hand a campus minister from my college lost his wife 2 1/2 yrs ago to cancer and just last week their 12 year old daughter died of cancer. through it all the 12 yr old (as did his wife & him) gave all glory to God. She was amazing. But it still makes me question and ask why.
There are passages in scripture where God did change his mind so I do think he can. Does he always? No. Does it bring us closer to Him? It can. We can’t see the big picture and that’s faith. Faith that He has it all in control.
I’m 3 messages into your baggage series and it’s teaching me so much. I’m looking forward to listening to this series also.
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Pete,
Wow good questions and ones that we all struggle with, whether we are standing at the bedside of a dying child, or are on top of the highest mountain.
God calls us to pray, that’s how we talk and listen to Him. You brought up in an earlier comment about Jesus asking for another option, which He did. Love drove all that Jesus did, and when we develop that same love relationship with our Father, we will be able from the deepest part of us, to say not my will but Your will.
To be honest, people that say that we can change God’s mind, make God a liar. Scripture plainly states that He is unchangeable, and that He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God can’t let me change his mind today, and not let you change it tomorrow, makes Him out of control, and that is one thing He is not.
When we can come to the place where we seek God first in all things, then we are in a place where God can change us, instead of the situation.
I am not even going to go to the place of why God heals some and not others, and why there is suffering, (even though OT clearly states that the poor will be with us always) because that’s God business not mine. I am called to pray, believe, and be willing to change. The King of the Universe does not need my help to run the world, He just needs me to abide.
Sallye
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@Amy N., I”m glad you’re enjoying the Baggage series. Hope it’s helpful to you!
pete wilson’s last blog post..Does Prayer Change Things?
These are great questions and it will be interesting to keep looking at the comments you receive.
Yes, I pray…why? because HE listens.
Matt. 21:22 – “everything you ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive”
Yes, the power of prayer can change things..but it also changes us and our heart.
I Jn. 5:15 – “if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him”
If God has already made up His mind then why bother…because we are called to Matt. 6:8 – “your Father knows what you need, before you ask Him”
With that being said…from my experience the hard part is when we feel that God has turned against us and not answered our prayers the way we wish them to be answered.
I have also learned that sometimes even when those prayers are not answered HE does answer then in bigger ways then we can see at the moment. How incredibly sad and devastating to lose a love one very young (or even old)…but sometimes HE begins a legacy of touching so many with one persons story…more than would be touched otherwise.
Having a 16 yr old son that has had more surgeries and procedures than most 90 yr olds…we could not have gotten through this without prayer. It is my voice with God. HE has not answered all of these prayers nor have all of them been answered the way we would have liked. But I know that HE sees the whole picture, we only see now…HE sees eternity. Walking by faith and prayer…..
I pray, I have always prayed, I have prayed earnestly, I will always pray, I believe in prayer partners praying with me. Once in a blue moon I have seen immediate answers to prayer. I have seen prayer take 10 years to be answered. I have come to believe Praise gains more than praying. Unforgiving people who refuse to change sometimes can never be reached.
Man, this one is tough.
As to what to say to the parents of Josiah, I wouldn’t even know where to begin. I can’t imagine any pain in life worse than that of losing a child. The “why” of it doesn’t make sense to me. And to offer up phrases such as: “He’s with God now,” or “He’s in a better place,” don’t seem very comforting to those who are going through such a tough time, even though I believe those things to be true and ultimately the spiritual goal for all of us. And, to think of the prayerful cries that went to heaven on his behalf….it’s a conundrum.
As to the why, my best guess is that sin is the cancer that has infected this world and is the the cause of the most detestable, unfair and random things that happen to good people, and not that it’s the way God would ever wish them to be – especially for the innocent and undeserving. I can’t imagine a loving God would want this to happen to any of his children.
I would think that God allows these things to happen because he allows us to be free to make our own choices, from Adam on down. I think that the germ of sin has had an exponential effect on the world and it’s still growing to the point where it even and often effects the innocent. And God, whom I’m thinking is always involved in a cosmic battle with sin, allows some things play out according to his rules of spiritual warfare. It seems to me that in a world where evil exists and a battle is always afoot, satan would try to attack the most faithful the most often, because those would be his biggest concern. It is truly unfair and unjust. I know that’s not a comforting answer, but it’s the only way that I can make sense of it.
Pete, I agree with you and Tony that I only have a three dimensional understanding of God who is well beyond any dimension. But, I have to think that my little brained praying makes a difference in my life and in the life of others, simply because God tells me that it will. In that, prayer can give me peace when I don’t have understanding. Through prayer, I can shore up my faith at those times that I’m most challenged. Since God is the only one who can pull me through those times, even though I can’t see how, when, where, what, nor understand the why. While the evil of the world is trying to tear me away from Him, prayer is my last and best connection to God.
And, without prayer, I would think that God suffers the loss of one of his children every day to the evil of our world.
But, all I could offer to Josaih’s parents would be sympathy, whatever help they need, and prayers on their behalf, and trust that God could do the rest.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but are there not places in the scripture where God was going to do one thing, but people begged and prayed to Him and He decided to change the way He would do something?
It’s a difficult one as we can go crazy trying to answer the unanswerable regarding suffering, healing, prayer…
But I’ve seen prayer change things. I’ve also prayed and begged and not have the outcome I thought could happen or wanted.
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I pray because I so desire an intimate relationship with the God who made the universe.
As far as my little prayer making any difference…I’ve no idea. I talk to Him about what’s on my heart because He’s my Father, my friend, my savior…I don’t know how to go through life without talking to Him…that’s all for me. The rest is just beyond my understanding.
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@Wes, thanks for sharing bro. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Is there a complete answer? Not that I know. But, for a partial one, can I share an experience that happened to me just a few years ago?
It’s wonderful to see God answer prayers. But what if he doesn’t seem to? I ask “Why?” Is God there? Why doesn’t he do something?
I asked those questions when I went to the hospital to visit a friend who’d had two surgeries in three weeks. I’d prayed for her healing for a year, and had unmistakably felt God’s presence in those prayers. Yet her condition had steadily worsened.
As we talked, ‘Jona’ told me that when she woke from her first operation, a black-haired man with a mustache was sitting in her chair, legs crossed, arms clasped around his knees. She assumed he was one of the doctors. When she regained consciousness after her second surgery, the same man was sitting on her bed.
Finally she asked a friend who he was. The lady replied “Jona, NO ONE’s been here!”
Yet Jona had seen him! Not once, but twice. Who had he been? Jesus? An angel? I didn’t know, but this time I left assured that God had heard our prayers. He’d chosen his own way to show her he loved her as his child. I didn’t need to analyze.
Prayer may not change the situation I am praying about to have the result I want. That’s why I’m glad God is in charge. BUT prayer ALWAYS changes me. It changes MY perspective of the situation and helps me have God’s perspective.
So yes, prayer changes things… It changes US!
When I was reading Amy Bennett’s post it kind of struck me…..we have all these questions about whether our prayer changes God’s will….but what if prayer, talking to God about the situation, allows us to acknowledge Him as part of the situation/the solution, etc. Because we have talked to Him about this situation, it allows Him to possibly bring us into line with His will if necessary and/or see things a little bit like He does and/or brings us into the action where He is and/or opens our eyes to the fact that we recognize God as part of the situation….so that we then can see what His will is, and we are aware of the situation and His involvement and are looking for His touch. Everything happens as it was supposed to, but now we have opened our eyes to see God in the situation and He gets the glory. Same outcome, but because we were or maybe think we were, a part of that by talking to God about the situation….we praise God, we glorify God and we talk to people about what God has done. If we had never prayed about the situation and healing occurred, or whatever we are talking to God about, would we attribute the outcome as readily to God’s handiwork…and therefore give Him the glory?…..just a thought. Not sure if I explained it right….but interesting….maybe????
What we need to keep in mind when it comes to prayer is that we are a cursed race. We(Adam) chose a life filled with pain and unfairness. God left that choice to us and we made the wrong one. Now the only thing God promises us is that he’ll be with us when bad things happen.
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I don’t necessarily like it, but prayer has long been a spiritual “weakness” or “neglect” of mine.
I just don’t do it. Not really. I mean, I can – & will.
But rarely do I pray of my own volition. And I’m beginning to think that it’s because I don’t think it’ll change much of what’s going to happen. God’s gonna do what He’s gonna do.
And I just need to do the best I can to deal with that.
That’s really it…
I’m sorry.
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Prayer. This is pretty much my favorite subject ever. I pray because communicating with God is what I know. I don’t try to change God’s mind or try to get something out of the deal…I rather try to align my heart and mind to His.
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If I was told by my board that I had to teach on this question, I would resign.
In 1 hour it will be the 6th anniversary of a day that changed my life forever. I was a new youth pastor in charge of our church summer camp when two kids drowned in a canoe accident. I had a team of prayer warriors covering it in prayer and did all the right planning.
I know God answered prayer that day (and all the days since). I know because I’ve made it 6 years. I know because it could have been worse. I know because He has shown me so much of Himself that I don’t think I would have seen without this tragedy.
My only question is why does His answer still hurt so much.
I look forward to hearing what you come up with.
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I’m late to the game on this one, but I’ve been away so forgive me! Anyway, prayer is such a tricky topic. I was typing up a sermon for the pastor I work for a few weeks ago and in it, it discussed how prayer can influence, but ultimately it is up to Him. If this wasn’t so public, I would post for you an online podcast my boss does as there are a few on prayer with some wonderful theologians who all have differing opinions, but I hate to post where I work so publicly! (If you want to know feel free to email) I pray all the time, not just my hearts desires, but to discuss life in general. I pray for His will and not just my own. It is HARD when your prayers aren’t answered (or you think they aren’t), but we do have to remember there is a greater plan out there unfolding every day.
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hey pete i really like what you say, im not sure prayer actually does anything or changes anything. i have seen prayer change things for the good but have also seen things not change if not get worse. i do feel cheated and jipped. i pray to see situations change because if i am praying they are usually not good and need to change. i dont need religious cliched phrases as i know you wont give but other people please save it for poeple that works on (thanks
) i want to know when i pray situtaions go from bad to worse literally in a moments notice. is god trying to prove something becuase my feelings for him go from bad to worse. thanks to christian know it alls i dont like god at all and some know it alls tell me thats my problem- well but only god knows the problem, they dont!- however when i pray i am praying because i cant change the situation myself and well expect god to change it – quit you know it alls who may be reading this i am not talking to you- i just want to know am i ticking god off that much?
also what i dont appreciate are people telling how my prayer is going to be answered and how and what the answer will be – literally!!!
they also have told me that god has no interest in that and cares about more important things – hmm could it possibly be god is more interested in things they are
pete why do poeple assume they know what is or isnt important to god
what gods answer is going to be and the outcome
religious people have turned me away from god
robbed me of joy hope and any reason to have faith
because no matter what i ask
its not gods will
final thing
gods thoughts are not our thoughs
and his ways are not ours
do i matter to god
does what i want matter to god
people say not my will but his be done
well poeple fine
but its also not my will nor YOURS be done
peopel thing gods will is not mine but somehow is their wlil
because no doubt i havent heerd gods will
but have heard their
these are self proclaiming christians
but that what bothers me
they are not god
not jesus
and not the holy spirit
the only authority on god is god!!!!!!!
not people
no theologian not even billy graham
god is the only expert of god
and my image of god
is not from god nor from me
christians
and its not a good image
and i think god hates me
dissaproves of me
right now
my thoughts arent even my thoughts
they are religious peoples naggings
and have to think out loud
becuase thats where my voice is
hey pete what i dont like is when people imply that what i am asking is not gods will by saying is it gods will and they way they say it the implying its not is there!!!
i am single and i am 34- i have never dated and some poeple believe its not gods will for me to be married
and dont seem to care that god said its not good for man to be alone, his motive for creating woman- however i cor 7 seems to be the verse they are holding on to becuase it somehow agress with them
ok why are christians even buying this idea that god has called poeple to be single- who originated this idea becuase thats all it is- i feel jipped and cheated out of life if i have been called to be single- really cheated
big time- marriage is a part of life
so many verses in the bible point to it
too many
they outweigh i cor 7 and paul wrote o cor 7
he also wrote that what he wrote was his opinion
the fact that he took time to write the separation from him and god on this topic- however some christians are not getting it or are omitting it
if anything non christians i woud think would he hardpressing this single nonsense so they could be promiscous- god created marriage
why on earth are poeple arguing with passions the idea that god has allegedly and it is alleged that he called people to be single
and also can a person tell you what god has called you to do
especially a stranger
one you dont know
why wouldnt got tell me directly
or someone i atually know
and poeple i actually know
do not belive god has called me to be single
i personally dont beleiver god calls anyoen to be single
and they way people used this
it took away hope
i was praying for a husband 7 years ago
and someone told me what if god has called me to be single
i have never dated
i never experienced it
lets just say god called me to be single
i feel jipped and cheated
becuase personally he didnt call anyone else in my hs to be single
just me
i feel hurt and saddened and depressed
would god call me to do something that make me this unhappy and this miserable
i am human
and am not sorry
my life here on earth
is here on earth not in heaven or hell
my life is not a practice run for heaven or hell
i am not auditioning for heaven or hell
i am single
would call me to do something that would make me this unhappy
yet all my friends
not acqauintances
friends are married
people tell me well god has a plan for my life
gosh everytime that is received as an insult
and gosh wish the movie click was real
i would rewind and delelet everything these peopel have said
they dont speak for god
my prayer is that god stop theses poeple
from speaking for him
becuase its a bad reflection of him!!!!!